1
00:01:02,229 --> 00:00:16,660
[Music]

2
00:01:05,270 --> 00:01:04,310
and good afternoon from philadelphia

3
00:01:07,910 --> 00:01:05,280
frank here with yet

4
00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:07,920
another episode of ufo news network

5
00:01:12,310 --> 00:01:09,040
sunday today on

6
00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:12,320
a saturday and i'm joined as

7
00:01:18,390 --> 00:01:15,360
always by my co-host

8
00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:18,400
chant hannah chan how are you today i'm

9
00:01:21,670 --> 00:01:19,600
great how are you frank

10
00:01:23,429 --> 00:01:21,680
uh doing good uh ready to go we've got a

11
00:01:24,870 --> 00:01:23,439
fantastic guest for us today

12
00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:24,880
so why don't you tell the people all

13
00:01:27,429 --> 00:01:26,080
about them and what we're going to be

14
00:01:30,230 --> 00:01:27,439
going over

15
00:01:31,109 --> 00:01:30,240
we have a very special guest his name is

16
00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:31,119
tom whitmore

17
00:01:34,230 --> 00:01:32,880
very well known person in the ufo

18
00:01:36,789 --> 00:01:34,240
community uh

19
00:01:39,109 --> 00:01:36,799
he's a longtime mufon board member has

20
00:01:40,310 --> 00:01:39,119
been a san antonio texas resident since

21
00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:40,320
1984

22
00:01:44,550 --> 00:01:42,640
originally from tulsa tom graduated with

23
00:01:46,149 --> 00:01:44,560
a degree in business administration from

24
00:01:47,749 --> 00:01:46,159
portland state university

25
00:01:49,510 --> 00:01:47,759
and had a career in the financial

26
00:01:51,670 --> 00:01:49,520
industry since the 70s

27
00:01:53,590 --> 00:01:51,680
he was most recently employed as a

28
00:01:57,109 --> 00:01:53,600
financial analyst with the local firm in

29
00:01:58,789 --> 00:01:57,119
san antonio where he retired in 2019

30
00:02:01,030 --> 00:01:58,799
he is an accomplished guitarist and has

31
00:02:03,109 --> 00:02:01,040
a grown daughter tom was invited to join

32
00:02:04,789 --> 00:02:03,119
the mufon board in 1995

33
00:02:06,389 --> 00:02:04,799
and experienced the organization's

34
00:02:08,869 --> 00:02:06,399
progress through the successive

35
00:02:10,710 --> 00:02:08,879
administrations of walt andrus john

36
00:02:13,750 --> 00:02:10,720
schussler

37
00:02:16,309 --> 00:02:13,760
james caron clifford clift dave mcdonald

38
00:02:17,830 --> 00:02:16,319
jan harzin and again

39
00:02:19,830 --> 00:02:17,840
sorry i was going to say dave mcdonald

40
00:02:21,430 --> 00:02:19,840
again he serves uh

41
00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:21,440
i guess that that means twice we'll have

42
00:02:25,270 --> 00:02:23,040
to ask tom about that in a bit

43
00:02:27,350 --> 00:02:25,280
he serves as treasurer and focuses on

44
00:02:28,390 --> 00:02:27,360
long-term and strategic issues for the

45
00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:28,400
organization

46
00:02:32,630 --> 00:02:30,720
tom has been fascinated by military and

47
00:02:34,150 --> 00:02:32,640
intelligence agencies interactions with

48
00:02:36,229 --> 00:02:34,160
the ufo public

49
00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:36,239
he has undertaken a research study of

50
00:02:39,589 --> 00:02:37,280
the history of the

51
00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:39,599
mj12 controversy and intends to

52
00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:41,840
eventually publish his findings

53
00:02:45,190 --> 00:02:43,840
he participates in discussions on the

54
00:02:47,509 --> 00:02:45,200
mj12 topic

55
00:02:49,830 --> 00:02:47,519
by giving presentations to local ufo

56
00:02:50,949 --> 00:02:49,840
groups appearing on internet podcasts

57
00:02:53,589 --> 00:02:50,959
and radio shows

58
00:02:55,430 --> 00:02:53,599
and by communicating in social media he

59
00:02:56,470 --> 00:02:55,440
is currently residing in the washington

60
00:02:58,550 --> 00:02:56,480
dc area

61
00:02:59,990 --> 00:02:58,560
in order to conduct documentary research

62
00:03:02,149 --> 00:03:00,000
at the national archives

63
00:03:04,869 --> 00:03:02,159
and the library of congress he recently

64
00:03:09,470 --> 00:03:04,879
published a paper titled mj12

65
00:03:15,190 --> 00:03:11,509
tomwitmoreblog.wordpress.com

66
00:03:16,949 --> 00:03:15,200
the uh first of all welcome to the show

67
00:03:18,149 --> 00:03:16,959
tom thank you so much for joining us

68
00:03:20,309 --> 00:03:18,159
again

69
00:03:21,990 --> 00:03:20,319
champ and frank thank you for having me

70
00:03:24,789 --> 00:03:22,000
today i'm glad to be here

71
00:03:25,190 --> 00:03:24,799
we appreciate your time i wanted to uh

72
00:03:28,789 --> 00:03:25,200
talk

73
00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:28,799
about something that took i

74
00:03:33,110 --> 00:03:30,720
i took a keen interest and that you took

75
00:03:34,710 --> 00:03:33,120
a lot of time and it was a lot of hard

76
00:03:36,229 --> 00:03:34,720
work putting together

77
00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:36,239
there's an article in particular we're

78
00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:37,840
going to discuss and

79
00:03:42,149 --> 00:03:40,080
focus on that you wrote on at 9 10 of

80
00:03:44,550 --> 00:03:42,159
this year it was titled mj 12 the

81
00:03:47,670 --> 00:03:44,560
counterintelligence angle

82
00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:47,680
could you please uh go over that article

83
00:03:57,270 --> 00:03:55,270
i was listening to a podcast i listened

84
00:03:59,429 --> 00:03:57,280
to a lot of podcasts and i try to keep

85
00:04:00,390 --> 00:03:59,439
up with what's going on in the ufo field

86
00:04:03,270 --> 00:04:00,400
of course

87
00:04:04,630 --> 00:04:03,280
but this particular podcast was an

88
00:04:08,710 --> 00:04:04,640
interview

89
00:04:11,990 --> 00:04:08,720
uh with with greg bishop and greg bishop

90
00:04:15,030 --> 00:04:12,000
uh has been a friend of bill bill moore

91
00:04:18,310 --> 00:04:15,040
for many years and in this uh

92
00:04:21,349 --> 00:04:18,320
interview greg bishop explained that

93
00:04:24,710 --> 00:04:21,359
apparently bill moore explained to him

94
00:04:26,390 --> 00:04:24,720
that the activities that bill moore who

95
00:04:29,030 --> 00:04:26,400
is a very prominent

96
00:04:31,110 --> 00:04:29,040
even brilliant ufo researcher during the

97
00:04:33,030 --> 00:04:31,120
80s and part of the 90s

98
00:04:34,870 --> 00:04:33,040
but that bill moore explained to him

99
00:04:37,909 --> 00:04:34,880
that he felt that

100
00:04:40,270 --> 00:04:37,919
he was being used

101
00:04:43,030 --> 00:04:40,280
as a source of information in a

102
00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:43,040
counter-intelligence operation

103
00:04:50,310 --> 00:04:46,080
specifically the thing that

104
00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:50,320
bill moore was involved in was a series

105
00:04:53,670 --> 00:04:51,840
of counter-measures

106
00:04:55,590 --> 00:04:53,680
against an individual by the name of

107
00:04:59,430 --> 00:04:55,600
paul benowitz

108
00:05:01,830 --> 00:04:59,440
now what bill moore did was he was

109
00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:01,840
interested in getting to the bottom of

110
00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:02,880
what the government

111
00:05:09,430 --> 00:05:06,000
knew about the ufo problem

112
00:05:13,510 --> 00:05:09,440
and at the time in the late 70s

113
00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:13,520
ufo researchers had begun filing many

114
00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:17,440
freedom of information act requests

115
00:05:22,550 --> 00:05:20,560
and even a lawsuit had come up by

116
00:05:23,590 --> 00:05:22,560
peter gersten an attorney out of new

117
00:05:26,870 --> 00:05:23,600
york

118
00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:26,880
so as well bill

119
00:05:30,790 --> 00:05:30,000
moore had published his book the roswell

120
00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:30,800
incident

121
00:05:37,430 --> 00:05:34,720
in 1980 so in addition to that

122
00:05:37,990 --> 00:05:37,440
leonard stringfield had been publishing

123
00:05:41,350 --> 00:05:38,000
stories

124
00:05:43,350 --> 00:05:41,360
of crash saucers recovered ufos and

125
00:05:46,150 --> 00:05:43,360
alien bodies so

126
00:05:46,629 --> 00:05:46,160
what was happening was the ufo field was

127
00:05:52,469 --> 00:05:46,639
really

128
00:05:53,270 --> 00:05:52,479
researching the roswell incident bill

129
00:05:55,749 --> 00:05:53,280
moore

130
00:05:56,710 --> 00:05:55,759
and stanton friedman i think believed

131
00:05:58,870 --> 00:05:56,720
that it was

132
00:05:59,990 --> 00:05:58,880
possible that the government had

133
00:06:02,870 --> 00:06:00,000
recovered

134
00:06:05,110 --> 00:06:02,880
at least one ufo and alien bodies and

135
00:06:07,430 --> 00:06:05,120
maybe even a live alien

136
00:06:09,110 --> 00:06:07,440
so bill moore was in a frame of mind to

137
00:06:11,749 --> 00:06:09,120
get to the bottom of what the government

138
00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:11,759
knew about ufos

139
00:06:14,790 --> 00:06:13,440
now the story goes that he was

140
00:06:18,150 --> 00:06:14,800
approached

141
00:06:21,909 --> 00:06:18,160
by uh one or more individuals

142
00:06:24,950 --> 00:06:21,919
to kind of make a deal he would inform

143
00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:24,960
on certain individuals and certain ufo

144
00:06:29,110 --> 00:06:26,160
groups

145
00:06:29,990 --> 00:06:29,120
and report back to his quote unquote

146
00:06:35,270 --> 00:06:30,000
controller

147
00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:35,280
would pass

148
00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:38,880
to him certain documents now they warned

149
00:06:42,150 --> 00:06:39,280
him

150
00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:42,160
that these documents might be partly

151
00:06:45,909 --> 00:06:42,720
true

152
00:06:48,950 --> 00:06:45,919
and partly false so through

153
00:06:51,029 --> 00:06:48,960
this whole sequence of events in the

154
00:06:55,189 --> 00:06:51,039
1980s

155
00:06:59,029 --> 00:06:55,199
bill moore did come across several

156
00:07:02,390 --> 00:06:59,039
so-called mj-12 related documents the

157
00:07:04,390 --> 00:07:02,400
so-called aquarius telex and the carter

158
00:07:07,670 --> 00:07:04,400
briefing document

159
00:07:09,589 --> 00:07:07,680
and then the uh the actual mj12

160
00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:09,599
documents the eisenhower briefing

161
00:07:12,870 --> 00:07:10,240
document

162
00:07:14,710 --> 00:07:12,880
and the truman force stall memo and the

163
00:07:17,510 --> 00:07:14,720
color twining memo

164
00:07:21,189 --> 00:07:17,520
and while all this was going on this

165
00:07:23,830 --> 00:07:21,199
individual by the name of paul benowitz

166
00:07:25,510 --> 00:07:23,840
who was living right next to kirtland

167
00:07:27,749 --> 00:07:25,520
air force base

168
00:07:28,790 --> 00:07:27,759
was taking pictures he was taking

169
00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:28,800
photographs

170
00:07:34,550 --> 00:07:31,840
he was taking a movie film

171
00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:34,560
he was taking scientific measurements

172
00:07:38,469 --> 00:07:35,360
such as

173
00:07:41,749 --> 00:07:38,479
fluctuations in magnetic fields on

174
00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:41,759
kirtland air force base and he was

175
00:07:45,909 --> 00:07:44,960
maybe monitoring electronic signals well

176
00:07:49,589 --> 00:07:45,919
paul benowitz

177
00:07:51,990 --> 00:07:49,599
had become a very firm ufo believer

178
00:07:54,469 --> 00:07:52,000
he had gotten interested in the cattle

179
00:07:56,950 --> 00:07:54,479
mutilation problem in the 70s

180
00:07:58,150 --> 00:07:56,960
and there was a lot of cattle mutilation

181
00:07:59,909 --> 00:07:58,160
activity

182
00:08:02,629 --> 00:07:59,919
in the western united states and

183
00:08:06,070 --> 00:08:02,639
particularly in new mexico

184
00:08:07,270 --> 00:08:06,080
paul benowitz was associating with gabe

185
00:08:10,550 --> 00:08:07,280
valdez

186
00:08:13,909 --> 00:08:10,560
who was a state policeman for new mexico

187
00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:13,919
in the dulce archuleta mesa

188
00:08:20,710 --> 00:08:18,560
area so by the time that paul benowitz

189
00:08:22,790 --> 00:08:20,720
started thinking that he was seeing ufos

190
00:08:25,110 --> 00:08:22,800
on kirkland air force base

191
00:08:26,550 --> 00:08:25,120
and taking these measurements and photos

192
00:08:29,749 --> 00:08:26,560
etc etc

193
00:08:32,790 --> 00:08:29,759
he actually approached kirtland

194
00:08:35,909 --> 00:08:32,800
and he spoke with this mr

195
00:08:39,190 --> 00:08:35,919
or major edwards who was

196
00:08:41,829 --> 00:08:39,200
in charge of security at the time

197
00:08:43,829 --> 00:08:41,839
and he approached him well to make a

198
00:08:46,389 --> 00:08:43,839
long story short he ended up

199
00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:46,399
working with richard doty and richard

200
00:08:51,509 --> 00:08:47,600
doty was

201
00:08:52,310 --> 00:08:51,519
a special special agent for the air

202
00:08:55,350 --> 00:08:52,320
force office

203
00:08:57,590 --> 00:08:55,360
special investigations and richard dodie

204
00:09:00,070 --> 00:08:57,600
was one of the main contacts

205
00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:00,080
that bill moore was working with during

206
00:09:04,949 --> 00:09:01,120
this whole

207
00:09:08,949 --> 00:09:04,959
least

208
00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:08,959
one meeting with dodie and a person that

209
00:09:13,030 --> 00:09:12,320
bill moore uh codenamed falcon he had at

210
00:09:16,150 --> 00:09:13,040
least one

211
00:09:19,590 --> 00:09:16,160
meeting with them reporting back to them

212
00:09:21,750 --> 00:09:19,600
how how paul bennowitz was reacting

213
00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:21,760
to the information that was being fed to

214
00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:23,040
him

215
00:09:28,470 --> 00:09:26,160
and it's it's it's the conventional

216
00:09:31,750 --> 00:09:28,480
wisdom in the ufo community

217
00:09:33,750 --> 00:09:31,760
that richard doty and company fed

218
00:09:37,030 --> 00:09:33,760
information to paul benowitz

219
00:09:39,670 --> 00:09:37,040
so that he became so obsessed

220
00:09:40,949 --> 00:09:39,680
with this idea that there were ufos and

221
00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:40,959
aliens

222
00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:45,440
abducting people

223
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:48,640
uh that paul benowitz eventually reached

224
00:09:52,310 --> 00:09:49,680
the point

225
00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:52,320
to where he had a complete nervous

226
00:09:57,910 --> 00:09:53,680
collapse

227
00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:57,920
and the conventional

228
00:10:02,069 --> 00:10:00,320
wisdom in the ufo community is it's all

229
00:10:05,829 --> 00:10:02,079
richard dodie's fault

230
00:10:08,389 --> 00:10:05,839
now the the reason why i gave such a

231
00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:08,399
long explanation about all this is that

232
00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:10,480
richard dodie has said

233
00:10:16,389 --> 00:10:14,079
and greg bishop said in his interview

234
00:10:18,509 --> 00:10:16,399
that all of this that was going on was

235
00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:18,519
really part of a much larger

236
00:10:22,150 --> 00:10:21,120
counterintelligence effort by the us

237
00:10:25,990 --> 00:10:22,160
government

238
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:26,000
and the idea being how many spies

239
00:10:32,150 --> 00:10:29,120
particularly soviet spies or agents

240
00:10:34,790 --> 00:10:32,160
are there actually in the united states

241
00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:34,800
and i think that bill moore has hinted

242
00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:35,680
that

243
00:10:40,470 --> 00:10:38,000
what he was involved in was part of a

244
00:10:42,949 --> 00:10:40,480
larger counterintelligence effort

245
00:10:44,470 --> 00:10:42,959
and what i pointed out in my papers yeah

246
00:10:47,269 --> 00:10:44,480
and frank was the

247
00:10:49,190 --> 00:10:47,279
if you look at the whole situation the

248
00:10:52,069 --> 00:10:49,200
aerospace industry

249
00:10:53,829 --> 00:10:52,079
the military the scientific community

250
00:10:56,150 --> 00:10:53,839
the government contractors

251
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:56,160
there's a whole lot of there are a whole

252
00:11:02,710 --> 00:10:58,399
lot of opportunities

253
00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:02,720
for uh the soviets to possibly makes uh

254
00:11:06,949 --> 00:11:04,160
you know penetrate

255
00:11:07,670 --> 00:11:06,959
these organizations yeah so uh a couple

256
00:11:10,870 --> 00:11:07,680
things

257
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:10,880
number one

258
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:13,600
if what moore is saying is accurate and

259
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:14,320
that

260
00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:17,040
uh this whole effort is uh counter intel

261
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:18,160
uh doesn't it uh

262
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:21,040
uh pretty well expose any majestic 12

263
00:11:26,829 --> 00:11:23,200
documents as being part of that effort

264
00:11:27,990 --> 00:11:26,839
and therefore uh just being essentially

265
00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:28,000
fiction

266
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:30,800
why i titled it mj 12 the counter

267
00:11:35,910 --> 00:11:32,720
intelligence angle because

268
00:11:38,470 --> 00:11:35,920
i think that these documents uh

269
00:11:39,670 --> 00:11:38,480
there may be a grain of truth in some of

270
00:11:42,550 --> 00:11:39,680
them

271
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:42,560
and whether the documents are phony and

272
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:43,120
whether

273
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:46,240
mj 12 or something like it existed or

274
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:47,040
exists

275
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:50,320
are really two different issues then i

276
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:53,680
but uh craig bishop left me with the

277
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:54,720
impression and i think

278
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:57,120
he left the audience with the impression

279
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:58,240
that bill moore

280
00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:00,639
after investigating all of this

281
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:02,160
information that he found on these

282
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:03,120
documents

283
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:04,880
eventually came to the conclusion that

284
00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:07,920
most of it was not useful

285
00:12:12,310 --> 00:12:10,320
okay and now yeah and again uh just uh

286
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:12,320
uh additionally following up

287
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:14,720
uh what evidence exists other than uh

288
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:16,079
the claims of more

289
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:18,720
uh that the effort is in fact uh

290
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:24,230
well that evidence exists yeah i mean

291
00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:25,839
other than his claiming it and now he

292
00:12:30,629 --> 00:12:27,760
came to that conclusion

293
00:12:31,110 --> 00:12:30,639
richard doty in in many interviews and i

294
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:31,120
i've

295
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:33,519
taken notes on at least 13 interviews

296
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:35,279
that richard dodie has given

297
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:38,720
on in various uh capacities on the

298
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:40,639
internet and so on and so forth but he

299
00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:41,839
has repeatedly

300
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:45,200
stated that the uh paul benowitz affair

301
00:12:47,990 --> 00:12:45,680
was

302
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,000
part of a larger counter intelligence

303
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:50,079
operation

304
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:52,959
now again uh what the evidence does he

305
00:12:56,230 --> 00:12:53,360
have

306
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:56,240
that it was part of a larger operation

307
00:12:59,829 --> 00:12:57,839
and it wasn't just the fact that

308
00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:59,839
dodie happened to be working at kirtland

309
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:01,440
he was a uh counter

310
00:13:05,750 --> 00:13:04,320
intel uh fosee guy uh benedicts happened

311
00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:05,760
to live across the street

312
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:07,440
and that it wasn't something just larger

313
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,800
it was just

314
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:10,079
something that popped up in their

315
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:11,519
neighborhood and they had to deal with

316
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:12,959
it and it didn't go any further than

317
00:13:16,949 --> 00:13:14,959
that

318
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:16,959
well one of the clues and i mentioned

319
00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:18,839
this in my paper

320
00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:23,839
but ron pandolfi who was a cia

321
00:13:31,150 --> 00:13:27,920
employee told bruce mcabee

322
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:31,160
a well-known ufo researcher that in the

323
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:33,120
1970s

324
00:13:39,509 --> 00:13:36,320
the cia was concerned that the soviets

325
00:13:41,030 --> 00:13:39,519
might be trying to exploit ufo

326
00:13:44,389 --> 00:13:41,040
enthusiasts

327
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:44,399
to get certain information and that

328
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,199
is not just a rumor because that is

329
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:49,040
actually mentioned

330
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:52,079
in a history of the cia and ufos that

331
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:53,279
you can get off

332
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:56,480
the internet that was written by richard

333
00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:58,079
haynes who is a

334
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,600
national reconnaissance office historian

335
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:03,760
so those are two clues right there that

336
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:05,680
there there was concern about that

337
00:14:09,910 --> 00:14:08,480
yes he also worked for nasa i wanted to

338
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:09,920
go over some of the

339
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:12,639
names that you've mentioned and i'm just

340
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:14,320
going to give our listeners a little bit

341
00:14:18,790 --> 00:14:16,079
of background information regarding

342
00:14:20,870 --> 00:14:18,800
some of the uh folks that you have

343
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:20,880
injected into the topic here

344
00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:23,839
uh paul benowitz uh there was a little

345
00:14:27,509 --> 00:14:24,160
bit

346
00:14:28,150 --> 00:14:27,519
of a blurb written by greg bishop for

347
00:14:31,670 --> 00:14:28,160
his book

348
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:31,680
titled project beta and uh it goes like

349
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:34,639
this in 1978 paul benowitz an electrical

350
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,040
physicist living in albuquerque new

351
00:14:41,030 --> 00:14:39,120
mexico became convinced that the strange

352
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:41,040
lights he saw hovering in the night sky

353
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:42,399
were extraterrestrial

354
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:44,320
he reached out to newspapers senators

355
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:45,920
and even the president before anyone

356
00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:46,800
responded

357
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:48,399
air force investigators listened to a

358
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,399
story as did bill moore the author of

359
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:52,079
the first book of the

360
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:54,639
on the infinite infamous roswell ufo

361
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:55,519
incident

362
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:57,600
unbeknownst to bennewitzmore was hired

363
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:59,440
by a group of intelligence agents to

364
00:15:02,310 --> 00:14:59,839
keep

365
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:02,320
tabs on benowitz while the air force ran

366
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:03,760
a psychological profile and

367
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:05,600
disinformation campaign

368
00:15:10,389 --> 00:15:08,320
on the unsuspecting physicist in return

369
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:10,399
air force intelligence would let more

370
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:13,040
in on classified ufo material moving

371
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:13,760
along

372
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:17,279
we also have rick doty

373
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:19,040
rick doty according to his linkedin

374
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:21,920
profile we have here he says

375
00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:25,040
state sergeant with the new mexico state

376
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:26,480
police and

377
00:15:30,389 --> 00:15:28,959
that was for 22 years and six months

378
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:30,399
regarding his having been

379
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:34,000
a staff sergeant um then as far as the

380
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:37,680
new mexico police that goes back to

381
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:40,800
1988 but i think that he served longer

382
00:15:45,189 --> 00:15:43,440
for the new mexico state police for i

383
00:15:45,670 --> 00:15:45,199
think it was 26 years and seven months

384
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:45,680
because

385
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:47,839
he wasn't sergeant for the entire time

386
00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:50,240
and then he was also a combat controller

387
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:52,639
for the united states air force employed

388
00:15:57,350 --> 00:15:55,440
from 1977 to a 79

389
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:57,360
and that was in mccord air force base

390
00:16:01,350 --> 00:15:58,480
washington

391
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:01,360
and then also i think you also mentioned

392
00:16:03,670 --> 00:16:02,560
bill moore i'll go ahead and read a

393
00:16:06,629 --> 00:16:03,680
little bit on him

394
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:06,639
william leonard moore born in 1943 as an

395
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:08,320
author and former ufo researcher

396
00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:09,440
prominent from the late

397
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:12,480
1970s to the late 80s he co-authored two

398
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:14,000
books as you know tom

399
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:15,839
with uh charles berlitz including the

400
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:17,360
roswell incident

401
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,079
and that was from wikipedia and then we

402
00:16:23,030 --> 00:16:22,240
also have you follow just jamie chandera

403
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:23,040
which you will

404
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:25,440
hopefully touch on that topic if you so

405
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:26,720
desire later on

406
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:28,800
and we also had uh bruce mcabee you

407
00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:31,040
mentioned and he was

408
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:33,759
he is he was born in 42 and is an

409
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:35,040
optical optical

410
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,440
american optical physicist formerly

411
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:39,440
employed by the us navy and a leading

412
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:41,040
ufologist

413
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:43,680
and then peter gershtin last person i'm

414
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:45,279
going to mention for right now

415
00:16:49,110 --> 00:16:47,040
i will mention a few more later on in

416
00:16:52,389 --> 00:16:49,120
the podcast and that is

417
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:52,399
he's an attorney he's was well known for

418
00:16:55,990 --> 00:16:53,040
having

419
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:56,000
uh been director of citizens against ufo

420
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:56,880
secrecy as you

421
00:16:59,990 --> 00:16:58,959
stated before which is cause that's the

422
00:17:02,150 --> 00:17:00,000
acronym for it

423
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:02,160
which is a non-profit organization

424
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:04,799
founded in 77 the headquarters were

425
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:08,079
scottsdale arizona and uh it's a freedom

426
00:17:12,230 --> 00:17:10,079
citizens against ufo secrecy is a

427
00:17:13,829 --> 00:17:12,240
freedom of information activist group

428
00:17:16,309 --> 00:17:13,839
that advocates for the release of

429
00:17:18,789 --> 00:17:16,319
classified information regarding ufos

430
00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:18,799
um so that's just a little bit of

431
00:17:23,270 --> 00:17:21,120
background regarding that topic

432
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:23,280
and i just want to jump in here a little

433
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:24,640
bit more on dodie i mean

434
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:28,160
we've also seen dodie uh recently on

435
00:17:31,510 --> 00:17:30,799
a national uh cable television show

436
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:31,520
claim that

437
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:33,480
the u.s government knows that the

438
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:35,840
extraterrestrials are from zeta reticuli

439
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,480
as well

440
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:39,200
so he said a lot of things and i know

441
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:40,400
you know this tom and

442
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:43,200
ron pandolf he has as well with his uh

443
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:44,960
with his princess and his uh

444
00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:47,679
portals and some of those other claims

445
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:48,400
uh

446
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:51,840
the kind of

447
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:55,280
wild claims that uh doty has made and uh

448
00:17:59,430 --> 00:17:56,960
pandolfe is made too

449
00:18:00,789 --> 00:17:59,440
with some of the other maybe more

450
00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:00,799
grounded things

451
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,960
that they've had to say but those things

452
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,240
don't necessarily

453
00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:06,880
uh aren't necessarily backed up by

454
00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:09,520
anything other than they're saying it

455
00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:12,320
yes and that's but even for more

456
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:14,640
conventional things frank like

457
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,440
certain counter intelligence activities

458
00:18:21,669 --> 00:18:19,679
or counter measures

459
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,679
it's it's unlikely that we can get to

460
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:23,280
the root of that because

461
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:25,200
all that information is likely going to

462
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:27,440
be classified anyway

463
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:30,880
but richard doty has repeatedly stated

464
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:33,200
in in a number of interviews and i've

465
00:18:37,110 --> 00:18:34,000
taken

466
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:37,120
copious notes that he was br

467
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:40,720
he received a briefing in 1979

468
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:43,440
he had been certified as an afosi

469
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:44,799
special agent

470
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:47,200
and he's claimed he claims that a

471
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:49,360
colonel flew down from washington

472
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:52,559
i believe this is in the summer of 1979

473
00:18:58,470 --> 00:18:55,919
and briefed him and upwards of maybe

474
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:58,480
five to ten other people in the room

475
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:01,520
and they showed a film of the roswell

476
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:02,720
recovery

477
00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:05,760
uh you know uh perhaps the

478
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,039
uh bodies that were covered

479
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:11,600
they showed that him they showed them

480
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:12,480
photographs

481
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:15,600
and film really substantive

482
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,880
evidence of ufos in action showed them

483
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,799
photographs of these very strange

484
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,559
looking aliens

485
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:24,720
and the way that richard dodie tells it

486
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:26,720
was he he said he after he

487
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:29,600
went through that he was driving home

488
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:31,200
and he had to pull over by the side of

489
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:32,400
the road

490
00:19:37,029 --> 00:19:35,840
and he the he said that the people of

491
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:37,039
the briefing

492
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:38,880
we're asking the colonel is this some

493
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:40,320
kind of a setup

494
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:42,880
you know is this phony and and the

495
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,000
colonel assured them

496
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:46,559
that it's that it was true so i mean

497
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:48,240
that's the story that richard dodie

498
00:19:52,549 --> 00:19:49,280
tells

499
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:52,559
and there is no way i we can file

500
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:55,039
foias until we're blue in the face and

501
00:19:58,630 --> 00:19:56,160
no way are they gonna

502
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:58,640
if it is true are they ever gonna admit

503
00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:00,000
that

504
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:02,080
and again uh just to jump in really

505
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:04,320
quick uh i don't know how closely you

506
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:04,880
followed

507
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:07,280
the bob lazar story but a lot of the

508
00:20:11,430 --> 00:20:08,080
things that

509
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:11,440
dodie has said and stated as being true

510
00:20:16,070 --> 00:20:14,320
lazar said he was briefed while he was

511
00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:16,080
working at area 51

512
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:18,400
and was told a lot of the same things

513
00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:20,320
have you looked into his story at all

514
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:22,400
and uh do you think it's uh uh uh what

515
00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:23,840
he's had to say is a dis

516
00:20:27,669 --> 00:20:26,480
info counter intel that type of thing uh

517
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,679
where

518
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:29,280
how do you fit him into all this if you

519
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:30,880
do it all

520
00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:32,960
well i don't know what to make of him

521
00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:35,039
and i'm reluctant to take

522
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:38,320
a hard line on bob lazar now

523
00:20:44,710 --> 00:20:41,840
dodie has claimed that he

524
00:20:47,029 --> 00:20:44,720
worked at so-called area 51 on a couple

525
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:47,039
of different occasions

526
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:49,360
in a counter intelligence capacity and

527
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:50,159
he's

528
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:53,679
said dodie has said that he was not

529
00:20:57,029 --> 00:20:56,640
cleared to go anywhere except for maybe

530
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:57,039
the

531
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:01,280
that bob lazar

532
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:04,480
worked further underground there so he

533
00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:06,960
he got a little bit specific about that

534
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:07,600
now

535
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:10,960
the problem with bob lazar is he he

536
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:14,000
he doesn't really fit the mold of a some

537
00:21:19,909 --> 00:21:16,640
really top-rated physicist

538
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:19,919
and his uh academic background

539
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:21,919
were unable to verify that stanton

540
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:25,440
freeman went through all of that so that

541
00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:26,720
i would take it further than that and

542
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:30,400
say he lied about that okay well i

543
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:32,880
but i i i'm reluctant to take a hard

544
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:33,919
line because

545
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:36,240
we can't it's so difficult to get to the

546
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:37,200
root

547
00:21:42,549 --> 00:21:40,240
information on on these claims and

548
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:42,559
there have been a whole series of claims

549
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:45,200
over many years

550
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,840
okay tom i had a a question i wanted to

551
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:49,120
ask you first i'm going to go ahead and

552
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:50,159
read a quote

553
00:21:55,190 --> 00:21:52,559
an excerpt from your article that you

554
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:55,200
wrote on the mj12 topic on 9 10 of this

555
00:21:57,350 --> 00:21:55,760
year

556
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:57,360
i'm going to go ahead and break begin

557
00:22:04,149 --> 00:22:02,549
the period of the 80s were just the

558
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:04,159
beginning of a pattern of question

559
00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:06,559
documents and claims appearing from

560
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:09,440
through 2017 although a discussion of

561
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:11,440
these items is beyond the scope of this

562
00:22:14,549 --> 00:22:12,400
paper

563
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:14,559
we are left with the question if the

564
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:16,320
original mj12

565
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:19,039
set were related to counterintelligence

566
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,000
efforts

567
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:22,080
are the same techniques being used up to

568
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:23,520
the present day

569
00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:25,280
we are reminded of the game's

570
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:26,640
intelligence

571
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:31,120
agencies play in the following reference

572
00:22:35,110 --> 00:22:33,600
for example the published stories about

573
00:22:37,510 --> 00:22:35,120
our star wars program

574
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,520
were replete with misinformation and

575
00:22:40,549 --> 00:22:39,200
forced the russians to expose their

576
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:40,559
sleeper agents

577
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,720
inside the american government by

578
00:22:44,950 --> 00:22:44,320
ordering them to make a desperate

579
00:22:47,909 --> 00:22:44,960
attempt

580
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:47,919
to find out what the us was doing but we

581
00:22:51,350 --> 00:22:48,799
could not risk

582
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:51,360
exposure of the administration's role

583
00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:53,360
and take the chance of another mccarthy

584
00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:54,400
period

585
00:22:59,750 --> 00:22:57,840
so there were no prosecutions we dried

586
00:23:02,149 --> 00:22:59,760
up and eliminated their access and left

587
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:02,159
the spies withering on the vine

588
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,880
nobody on the joint chiefs of staff ever

589
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:06,480
believed we were going to build star

590
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:07,120
wars

591
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:08,960
but if we could convince the russians

592
00:23:14,149 --> 00:23:10,960
that we could survive a first strike

593
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:14,159
we win the game ufo researchers like to

594
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:16,000
think that they are being watched

595
00:23:19,909 --> 00:23:17,520
although they may have grounds to

596
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:19,919
suspect such the reasons may be

597
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:21,760
completely different from what they want

598
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:27,270
you said you said a lot there did you

599
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:29,760
want to talk about that a little bit

600
00:23:34,149 --> 00:23:32,960
well we've had it when when the mj-12

601
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:34,159
documents

602
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:36,720
started coming out in the 1980s it

603
00:23:41,430 --> 00:23:38,640
didn't stop there

604
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:41,440
we also had the bob lazar claims that

605
00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:43,360
frank just mentioned

606
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:47,360
we had a document mailed to don berliner

607
00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:50,480
who is another person in the ufo field

608
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:53,360
and that document was mailed to him in a

609
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:54,480
roll of film

610
00:23:58,070 --> 00:23:56,640
very similar to the way that a roll of

611
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,080
film was was mailed to

612
00:24:02,830 --> 00:24:00,720
jamie chanderie and bill moore and this

613
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:02,840
this became known as the psalm

614
00:24:08,310 --> 00:24:06,000
1-01 manual and

615
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:08,320
critics have found 20 things wrong with

616
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:09,360
that

617
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:12,240
then you have the timothy cooper

618
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:13,520
documents

619
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:16,960
and most of most of the mj-12 or most of

620
00:24:21,510 --> 00:24:18,320
the documents that are

621
00:24:26,789 --> 00:24:21,520
directly related to mj12 are on the

622
00:24:29,269 --> 00:24:26,799
woods website mj12documents.com

623
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:29,279
and this is all these are a number of

624
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:30,240
documents

625
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:32,559
involved in that and then you have the

626
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,480
claims from dan burrish

627
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:37,039
who claimed that he was you know kind of

628
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:39,200
in an analogous capacity

629
00:24:46,630 --> 00:24:42,559
uh working at area 51 with a live alien

630
00:24:48,789 --> 00:24:46,640
then we had some we then we had serpo

631
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:48,799
right and then we've also had another

632
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:51,120
document come out in 2017

633
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:53,120
though i call it the ultra top secret

634
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:54,159
document

635
00:24:58,830 --> 00:24:56,400
and then a few a few days ago i was

636
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:58,840
watching one of linda howe's

637
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:01,600
presentations and she was waving around

638
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:02,480
this

639
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:04,799
pretty thick document that she says was

640
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:06,320
mj 12 related

641
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:07,919
so what i'm trying to say is this is

642
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:10,400
going on up to the present day

643
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:12,799
with very similar techniques and this is

644
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:14,720
why i asked ask the question

645
00:25:17,990 --> 00:25:16,000
if it was part of the counter

646
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,000
intelligence program in the 80s

647
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:20,159
are they still using the same you know

648
00:25:24,390 --> 00:25:21,279
the same tactics

649
00:25:26,710 --> 00:25:24,400
up to this day or

650
00:25:28,630 --> 00:25:26,720
or maybe the simpler explanation tom is

651
00:25:29,909 --> 00:25:28,640
it that dodie is still alive he's still

652
00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:29,919
doing this sort of thing

653
00:25:34,549 --> 00:25:32,799
and uh he's you know just acting as a

654
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:34,559
private sector opportunist to

655
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:37,840
gin up interest and uh in himself

656
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:40,320
get interviews uh get attention for

657
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:41,200
himself

658
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:44,799
uh possibly uh try to sell a movie

659
00:25:47,430 --> 00:25:46,080
script uh which

660
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:47,440
uh there have been some reports that

661
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:49,200
he's been working on that uh

662
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:51,039
maybe and uh for his own personal

663
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:52,320
entertainment

664
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:55,039
i mean there's a that's that that's the

665
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:56,880
direction that frankly i'm leaning in

666
00:25:59,430 --> 00:25:57,200
and

667
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:59,440
what do you think about all that well

668
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:01,279
it's a possibility i mean that's

669
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:04,400
that's the pure hoax theory that one or

670
00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:05,919
more individuals are just

671
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:09,600
creating hoaxes out of whole cloth so

672
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:11,360
tom i would like for you to correct me

673
00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:13,440
on this if i'm incorrect so please do

674
00:26:17,350 --> 00:26:16,400
and frank also my understanding is rick

675
00:26:20,470 --> 00:26:17,360
doty

676
00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:20,480
uh admitted to the public that he was

677
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:22,400
trying to deceive them in various ways

678
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:23,279
regarding

679
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:26,880
various topics um related to

680
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:29,200
i believe it was the ufo topic i guess i

681
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:32,720
could generalize in that manner

682
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:35,440
now my question to you is if he has

683
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:36,480
admitted that

684
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:40,080
to the public why should we believe him

685
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:43,679
at all on anything well

686
00:26:50,149 --> 00:26:46,880
in the first place a lot of

687
00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:50,159
the bad reputation that dodie

688
00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:53,440
received arose out of his activities

689
00:26:58,230 --> 00:26:55,440
during the 1980s

690
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:58,240
both in his relationships with bill

691
00:27:01,750 --> 00:26:58,799
moore

692
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:01,760
and other ufo researchers such as linda

693
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:03,039
howe

694
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:06,080
and with paul benowitz now

695
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:09,840
when when we wouldn't even know

696
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:12,480
about that if bill moore hadn't gone

697
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:14,559
public in 1989

698
00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:17,600
he gave a talk at the mufon symposium in

699
00:27:22,710 --> 00:27:19,120
las vegas

700
00:27:24,230 --> 00:27:22,720
and he explained this relationship that

701
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:24,240
i mentioned earlier

702
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:27,120
he he had gotten into a relationship

703
00:27:29,990 --> 00:27:27,600
with

704
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:30,000
one or more intelligence agencies

705
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:30,960
apparently

706
00:27:34,230 --> 00:27:32,840
in exchange for getting certain

707
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:34,240
information

708
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:37,919
and the ufo community in one way he was

709
00:27:43,510 --> 00:27:40,000
trying to warn the community

710
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:43,520
now i think that it's possible

711
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:46,799
that bill moore was burned by

712
00:27:53,269 --> 00:27:49,919
by his controllers and that his

713
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:53,279
talk in 1989 was his revenge

714
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:56,880
it was his touche okay because you feel

715
00:28:01,990 --> 00:27:58,960
that bill moore was double-crossed

716
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:02,000
yes or where he he realized

717
00:28:08,870 --> 00:28:05,360
that he had been played okay now

718
00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:08,880
when so the ufo community gets wise

719
00:28:12,710 --> 00:28:11,200
to this whole idea that one they're

720
00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:12,720
being monitored

721
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:14,880
two one or more individuals are

722
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:17,360
spreading disinformation

723
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:20,159
and so on and so forth so that then they

724
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:21,279
go to richard doty

725
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:22,880
and they start peppering him with

726
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:25,039
questions and accusations

727
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:27,440
and dodie is evasive because for one

728
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,159
thing

729
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,279
he's still under uh confidentiality

730
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:33,120
he's still under non-disclosure at the

731
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:34,640
time so he was

732
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:38,320
evasive now dodie has explained that

733
00:28:44,230 --> 00:28:41,440
his non-disclosure agreement

734
00:28:46,549 --> 00:28:44,240
was for 25 years and you'll notice that

735
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:46,559
after that 25-year period

736
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:49,760
let's say if we take 1979 and add 29

737
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:53,279
25 to it after that after that time

738
00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:54,159
period

739
00:28:59,269 --> 00:28:56,880
he started coming out public in public

740
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:59,279
and started uh making these statements

741
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:01,919
and making these claims uh really quick

742
00:29:05,669 --> 00:29:02,480
uh

743
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:05,679
film mirage men

744
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:07,120
and uh what were your thoughts about

745
00:29:12,070 --> 00:29:09,840
that if you had well

746
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,080
mirage man of course you know at least

747
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:14,320
uh it leaves you with a very negative

748
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:16,559
impression of dodie yes and that's why i

749
00:29:20,710 --> 00:29:18,159
mentioned what i did

750
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:20,720
but but this is this is the conventional

751
00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:21,360
wisdom

752
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:24,720
now if you ask dodie about mirage men

753
00:29:28,950 --> 00:29:27,600
he'll he'll tell you that they really

754
00:29:31,909 --> 00:29:28,960
screwed him around

755
00:29:34,149 --> 00:29:31,919
on that deal and they edited it in such

756
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:34,159
a way as to make him look bad

757
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:36,240
so that's his side of the story but

758
00:29:42,630 --> 00:29:40,399
wouldn't it be fair to say that no

759
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:42,640
matter what he said whether it was taken

760
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:44,880
in or out of context

761
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:48,320
that his statements stand alone

762
00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:51,520
as they are i think that

763
00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:55,200
as researchers we need to be careful

764
00:30:01,430 --> 00:29:58,559
with the claims that dodee makes okay

765
00:30:02,149 --> 00:30:01,440
but at the same time i don't take the

766
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:02,159
position

767
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:05,919
that he's this sociopathic

768
00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:08,080
compulsive liar and you can't believe

769
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:09,279
anything that he says

770
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:12,240
i don't take that position either and uh

771
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:13,440
just to follow up

772
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:15,760
dodie's been featured a couple other

773
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:16,480
times and

774
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:18,559
my guess is that you have seen these

775
00:30:21,269 --> 00:30:20,240
yeah he was also featured rather

776
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:21,279
extensively

777
00:30:24,870 --> 00:30:23,440
in not the most recent stephen grier

778
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:24,880
film but the one before that

779
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:27,840
unacknowledged where greer painted him

780
00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,039
quite differently than

781
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:31,679
the way dodie claims he was uh portrayed

782
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:33,200
in mirage men that he was

783
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:35,440
a heroic whistleblower what are your

784
00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:38,640
thoughts on that if you saw it

785
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:41,039
well there's there's one thing that i

786
00:30:44,830 --> 00:30:43,520
have noticed about dodie and he seems to

787
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:44,840
be the only

788
00:30:50,230 --> 00:30:48,240
afosi special agent who is going

789
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:50,240
out in public and making these claims

790
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:51,360
that the government

791
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:54,000
has all of the secret ufo knowledge you

792
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:56,159
know why is he the only one

793
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:58,480
uh that that's an unanswered question

794
00:31:03,269 --> 00:30:59,760
for me

795
00:31:05,909 --> 00:31:03,279
okay uh one and again also to follow up

796
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,919
in the first season of unacknowledged in

797
00:31:09,029 --> 00:31:07,279
one of the later episodes i think it

798
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:09,039
might have been episode five

799
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:11,440
uh they seem to take a a lot of umbrage

800
00:31:15,509 --> 00:31:12,640
over dodie's work

801
00:31:17,190 --> 00:31:15,519
and that elizondo in particular uh sort

802
00:31:19,269 --> 00:31:17,200
of

803
00:31:20,870 --> 00:31:19,279
charged back at him uh saying that uh

804
00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:20,880
the accusations that he's just another

805
00:31:23,750 --> 00:31:21,840
richard dodie

806
00:31:25,029 --> 00:31:23,760
are false and that he's nothing like him

807
00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:25,039
at all your thoughts on that

808
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:26,559
that they felt that they needed to

809
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:29,039
address dodie uh in the show i mean i

810
00:31:31,990 --> 00:31:30,399
thought that was rather significant that

811
00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:32,000
they did it

812
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:34,720
well i think that that's because things

813
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:35,360
have become

814
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,880
circular frank and there was

815
00:31:43,029 --> 00:31:40,399
a lot there's been a lot of

816
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:43,039
consternation and unhappiness

817
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:46,159
about what happened during the 1980s you

818
00:31:49,830 --> 00:31:46,640
know with

819
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:49,840
war and dodie and all that and now

820
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:51,279
you have some people that have

821
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:53,760
government backgrounds like elizondo

822
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:58,000
christopher millen jim semivann etc etc

823
00:32:01,509 --> 00:31:59,760
and certain people are taking the

824
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:01,519
position well they're from the

825
00:32:05,190 --> 00:32:03,200
government so they must be here to

826
00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:05,200
spread disinformation

827
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:08,320
and you can't they can't be trusted i

828
00:32:11,750 --> 00:32:09,840
don't think that's right

829
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:11,760
okay because for one thing that's

830
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:14,000
fighting the last war

831
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:16,799
and this is a different situation now

832
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:17,279
and

833
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:20,240
my personal opinion is that they have

834
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:23,279
they have good intentions

835
00:32:29,029 --> 00:32:26,480
go ahead so that's that's okay

836
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:29,039
so just wanted to uh uh frank brought up

837
00:32:32,230 --> 00:32:29,919
something really

838
00:32:33,509 --> 00:32:32,240
important i think and that's mirage man

839
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:33,519
i watched that movie because frank

840
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:34,960
recommended it i thought it was right

841
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:37,039
to bug you to watch it and you finally

842
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:39,120
did it i know well i do and

843
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:41,039
i just want to say something personal

844
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:42,159
here i actually do

845
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,360
a lot of ufo slash et related

846
00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:48,000
research and so when somebody asked me

847
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:49,679
to see something frank actually does

848
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:50,880
know this to be true

849
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,240
i spend every day and every night um

850
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:56,640
in databases all over the world looking

851
00:33:02,310 --> 00:32:59,039
for as much ufo slash et related

852
00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:02,320
uh historical data as i can so it just

853
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:04,480
adds to my list of other media

854
00:33:09,269 --> 00:33:07,120
uh for me to uh to watch but anyway i

855
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:09,279
wanted to inject in this discussion

856
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:10,960
a little bit about mirageman what it's

857
00:33:15,669 --> 00:33:13,519
about it says his 2013 documentary

858
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:15,679
directed by john lenberg written by mark

859
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:16,799
pilkington

860
00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:19,440
uh who did write a book on it and co-uh

861
00:33:25,269 --> 00:33:21,840
directed by roland denning and uh

862
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:25,279
kip rosa capriano miragement is about

863
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,440
how the us government used in mythology

864
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:29,360
to cover up their advanced technology it

865
00:33:32,870 --> 00:33:30,480
prominently features

866
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,880
rick richard dodi a retired special

867
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:35,039
agent who worked for fosees you said tom

868
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:36,799
the united states air force office's

869
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:38,320
special investigation

870
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:41,200
and uh mark pilkington's book about the

871
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:42,880
project also called mirageman was

872
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:45,519
published in 2010. now moving along

873
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:48,080
i wanted to mention another topic

874
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:49,519
there's an individual a little

875
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:51,679
yeah before you do chat let me let me

876
00:33:56,070 --> 00:33:53,360
interrupt again really quick

877
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:56,080
i believe that mirage men is available

878
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:57,840
over on youtube for free with

879
00:34:01,110 --> 00:33:59,279
advertisements so

880
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:01,120
people can watch it for themselves and

881
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:02,399
make their own judgment

882
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:04,000
and it's important frank did say that

883
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:05,519
because uh not a lot of people

884
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:06,000
especially

885
00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:08,159
during this period of time kind of uh

886
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,599
economy that we have

887
00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:11,679
people can't just afford you know every

888
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:13,760
movie for five or six bucks so

889
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:15,200
being able to see it for free is really

890
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:16,800
important thank you for uh letting us

891
00:34:20,230 --> 00:34:17,599
know that

892
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:20,240
now tom wanted to let you know about a

893
00:34:24,389 --> 00:34:22,159
certain topic i wanted to bring up

894
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:24,399
it sounds a little cloak and dagger

895
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:25,200
shadowy

896
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:27,440
individual possibly maybe you you tell

897
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:28,240
me uh

898
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:31,040
falcon which is one of the uh avian

899
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:33,280
aviary related names that we hear often

900
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:34,800
on the ufo community

901
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:37,200
uh harry rositski can you give us a

902
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:39,760
little bit of information on him

903
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:43,200
harry rosicky i believe he had

904
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,119
i don't know if he got a phd but he had

905
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:47,679
a degree in linguistics from harvard

906
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:49,919
and i i think i think he was an

907
00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:51,280
instructor there

908
00:34:57,829 --> 00:34:56,000
but he he was in the um

909
00:34:59,270 --> 00:34:57,839
whatever it was before the cia i'm

910
00:35:01,990 --> 00:34:59,280
having a senior moment

911
00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:02,000
and he was in the cia and he was he was

912
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:03,599
a cia

913
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:06,720
case officer and his specialty was uh

914
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:09,680
soviet soviet union so he was running

915
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:11,839
agents in eastern europe

916
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:15,119
and he also uh you know worked worldwide

917
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:16,000
i believe that he

918
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:19,760
was involved in a a uh

919
00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:23,119
situation in india and he had a long

920
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:24,320
history of working

921
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:28,160
with cia well the the idea is

922
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,440
is that he was brought out of retirement

923
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:33,599
to assist in this in these counter

924
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,720
measures in this

925
00:35:38,310 --> 00:35:37,200
counterintelligence program and that

926
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:38,320
bill moore

927
00:35:41,589 --> 00:35:40,960
uh never disclosed the identity of

928
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:41,599
falcon

929
00:35:46,230 --> 00:35:45,280
until after uh harry rosenski passed

930
00:35:49,510 --> 00:35:46,240
away

931
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:49,520
and greg bishop tells the story that

932
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:51,520
he and bill moore had gone out to a

933
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:53,440
location to look at something

934
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:56,480
but that craig bishop had really

935
00:36:02,230 --> 00:35:59,680
tried to figure out who who falcon was

936
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:02,240
andy and uh bill moore made him keep

937
00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:03,920
guessing but he finally admitted that it

938
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:04,400
was

939
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:07,839
harry rosinski i understood another uh

940
00:36:16,630 --> 00:36:12,960
possible aviary member was bruce mcabee

941
00:36:20,950 --> 00:36:16,640
yeah he was he was skipping a navy or

942
00:36:22,870 --> 00:36:20,960
maybe these people were circulating

943
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,880
you know with certain aspects of the

944
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:24,400
government for example

945
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:27,599
bruce mcabee would give brown bag lunch

946
00:36:33,510 --> 00:36:31,520
talks at the cia and so he had some

947
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:33,520
connections at the c.i.a

948
00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:35,520
and we've heard about dodie and more

949
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:37,440
peter gersten

950
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:39,920
i think had been approached by by

951
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:41,119
richard doty

952
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,920
and in this you know you talk about

953
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:45,440
mirage men

954
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:48,480
but i've got at least 10 references 10

955
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:50,800
sources that i'm using in working on

956
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:51,599
this paper

957
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:54,880
about this whole era and i found

958
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:56,800
in my own in the timeline that i've been

959
00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:58,560
working on that it was

960
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:02,000
peter gersten that suggested that linda

961
00:37:05,190 --> 00:37:02,480
hal

962
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:05,200
get in touch with richard doty and then

963
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:06,960
we have the sequence where

964
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:10,079
linda howe uh has this appointment with

965
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:11,920
richard dodie at kirtland and she's

966
00:37:14,950 --> 00:37:12,560
shown

967
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:14,960
you know this carter briefing document

968
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:17,119
and then bill moore apparently was shown

969
00:37:20,150 --> 00:37:18,320
the same document

970
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,160
but under much more cloak and dagger

971
00:37:24,230 --> 00:37:22,000
circumstances oh really quickly

972
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:24,240
uh we know about the eisenhower briefing

973
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:25,920
document that's obviously one of the

974
00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:26,560
more

975
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:29,200
famous majestic 12 documents uh this

976
00:37:36,069 --> 00:37:30,880
carter briefing document

977
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:36,079
is that readily available is new to this

978
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,160
yes you can get you can find it on the

979
00:37:42,950 --> 00:37:39,839
internet um

980
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:42,960
it's uh it's longer than the

981
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:46,480
um than the eisenhower briefing document

982
00:37:49,990 --> 00:37:49,119
and it mentions a lot of these projects

983
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:50,000
like project

984
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:53,119
red light and project snowbird and so on

985
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:54,320
and so forth

986
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:56,480
and a lot of these project names ended

987
00:38:03,349 --> 00:37:59,839
up being spread around by

988
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:03,359
william cooper later in the 80s so

989
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:06,640
uh the carter it's called the carter

990
00:38:10,790 --> 00:38:07,680
briefing document

991
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:10,800
but the the legend

992
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:14,000
is that this is what uh uh president

993
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:15,359
carter was briefed on

994
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:16,960
when he became president of the united

995
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,280
states and you had mentioned

996
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:21,359
the serpo documents and one of those

997
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:22,320
documents is

998
00:38:27,510 --> 00:38:26,000
allegedly a transcript of a briefing for

999
00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:27,520
president reagan have you had the

1000
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:29,359
opportunity to look that over and

1001
00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:32,000
what are your thoughts about that i'm

1002
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:33,200
not as familiar

1003
00:38:37,829 --> 00:38:36,160
with that frank i have not studied the

1004
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:37,839
so-called reagan briefing

1005
00:38:44,870 --> 00:38:41,119
i've i've seen it brief you know briefly

1006
00:38:48,150 --> 00:38:44,880
um but you know we um

1007
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:48,160
bob bob collins robert uh robert collins

1008
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:48,720
who was

1009
00:38:55,670 --> 00:38:52,720
condor in the ufo cover-up live program

1010
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:55,680
he claims that the ufo cover-up live

1011
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:56,400
program

1012
00:39:02,950 --> 00:39:00,800
was the reagan disclosure and there's

1013
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:02,960
there's enough material in all this that

1014
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:04,640
i think you have to study

1015
00:39:08,950 --> 00:39:07,200
study at all and look at it all

1016
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:08,960
historically and try to

1017
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:11,440
get up to 20 30 000 feet and try to see

1018
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:12,720
the big picture

1019
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:14,720
i i'm not saying that you shouldn't look

1020
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:16,480
at mirage men but i don't think you

1021
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:23,430
okay i wanted to go ahead and talk a

1022
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:25,040
little bit about john lear

1023
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:28,320
um and just mention a

1024
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,079
little bit about him and then ask you a

1025
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:32,560
question um

1026
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:34,320
i hope i'm not incorrect in saying this

1027
00:39:36,790 --> 00:39:36,079
but i believe his father helped to

1028
00:39:39,030 --> 00:39:36,800
design the

1029
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:39,040
the learjet or had a very significant

1030
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:41,200
part to play regarding that

1031
00:39:47,589 --> 00:39:44,800
famous learjet that we have now

1032
00:39:49,109 --> 00:39:47,599
anyway uh john lehrer who is now 77

1033
00:39:51,109 --> 00:39:49,119
years old he spent 40 years as a

1034
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:51,119
commercial pilot and holds most faa

1035
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:53,119
airmen certificates ever issued by the

1036
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:55,119
faa to a single pilot

1037
00:39:59,589 --> 00:39:57,680
including airline transfer pilot and

1038
00:40:03,589 --> 00:39:59,599
actually that list is very long so

1039
00:40:05,589 --> 00:40:03,599
moving along uh it sounds like and he

1040
00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:05,599
has quite a bio i mean it goes on for

1041
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:07,200
actually many pages

1042
00:40:11,109 --> 00:40:09,839
um he's made quite a few claims in the

1043
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:11,119
ufo community

1044
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:18,390
i'll be frank with you i don't know that

1045
00:40:23,109 --> 00:40:21,280
i believe all of them

1046
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,119
i wanted to ask you what part do you

1047
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:25,040
feel that he had to play with the mj-12

1048
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:30,870
according to christian lambright john

1049
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:33,040
lehrer went down and visited with paul

1050
00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:37,990
and

1051
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:40,720
bill moore came out with his uh

1052
00:40:43,910 --> 00:40:42,319
information about the eisenhower

1053
00:40:47,510 --> 00:40:43,920
briefing document

1054
00:40:50,150 --> 00:40:47,520
and the truman force stall memo in 1987

1055
00:40:52,630 --> 00:40:50,160
and that's about when john lear started

1056
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:52,640
coming out with his his

1057
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:55,119
theories and i think he talked to some

1058
00:40:58,790 --> 00:40:55,680
people

1059
00:41:00,950 --> 00:40:58,800
i think he talked to maybe a couple of

1060
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:00,960
people in the so-called aviary

1061
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:03,359
maybe robert collins maybe you talked to

1062
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:05,599
richard doty

1063
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:08,800
and and so on and so forth

1064
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,240
and quite frankly i agree with you i'm

1065
00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:14,160
very very skeptical of just about

1066
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:17,440
every claim that john lear makes uh he's

1067
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:18,640
even said that there are

1068
00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:20,640
something like 5 million people living

1069
00:41:24,470 --> 00:41:21,760
inside the sun

1070
00:41:26,230 --> 00:41:24,480
you know something outrageous like that

1071
00:41:28,870 --> 00:41:26,240
so

1072
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:28,880
i think he he came in late in the game

1073
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:31,040
he didn't really become more prominent

1074
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:32,560
until the later 80s

1075
00:41:37,910 --> 00:41:35,760
in fact it was in 1989

1076
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:37,920
uh that he was supposed to be running

1077
00:41:44,309 --> 00:41:40,720
the mufon symposium in las vegas and

1078
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:44,319
there was this bruh he wanted certain

1079
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:45,440
people to talk

1080
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:48,720
including william cooper and uh he

1081
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:50,640
actually split off and had his own

1082
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:53,520
little show you know las vegas separate

1083
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:53,920
from

1084
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:56,319
phones well wasn't that the same year

1085
00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,119
that

1086
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:59,760
uh uh the uh the other bill i'm getting

1087
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:00,880
confused with cooper

1088
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:02,880
and uh the other bill uh the one who

1089
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:05,040
worked with uh uh bill moore sorry about

1090
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:07,119
that i i had my senior moment there

1091
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:09,520
uh that was that wasn't that uh the same

1092
00:42:13,270 --> 00:42:11,040
wasn't that the same day

1093
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:13,280
like uh the the one was sort of uh the

1094
00:42:16,150 --> 00:42:14,480
one with more was

1095
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:16,160
sort of down the street from the one

1096
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:18,640
with with lear in the late 80s when

1097
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:21,680
uh moore made his uh his

1098
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:24,960
revelation about uh uh being a used

1099
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:27,520
as a counter intel tool you remember

1100
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:29,359
that was either the same day or the same

1101
00:42:32,069 --> 00:42:30,160
week i mean

1102
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:32,079
they were right you know right at the

1103
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:37,349
so it was it would have been an

1104
00:42:42,470 --> 00:42:39,839
interesting day to be in vegas

1105
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:42,480
yeah and that was i didn't actually get

1106
00:42:45,670 --> 00:42:44,560
active in the ufo field until a little

1107
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:45,680
bit after that about

1108
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,400
around 1990 or so um by the way part of

1109
00:42:53,270 --> 00:42:50,960
his bio states that in april of 1977

1110
00:42:55,190 --> 00:42:53,280
john penetrated the security area of 51

1111
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,200
and took the only pictures ever taken by

1112
00:43:00,790 --> 00:42:57,359
a civilian of our russian fighter

1113
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:00,800
uh in front of a hangar

1114
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:03,040
anyway i wanted to mention something

1115
00:43:08,230 --> 00:43:05,119
else uh

1116
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:08,240
and that is i believe that john lear was

1117
00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:12,160
a director for mufon las vegas

1118
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:13,920
during the period of time that george

1119
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:16,960
knapp was covering bob lazar

1120
00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:20,240
um okay so i just wanted to ask you a

1121
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:22,240
few more questions a state director for

1122
00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:23,520
nevada

1123
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:26,720
at the time of that thank you

1124
00:43:31,190 --> 00:43:29,359
thanks for confirming that uh now barry

1125
00:43:34,390 --> 00:43:31,200
greenwood who is well-known

1126
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:34,400
ufo researcher he's a veteran researcher

1127
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:36,960
we have a deep respect for him and his

1128
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:39,760
his fantastic work on behalf of the ufo

1129
00:43:42,790 --> 00:43:40,560
community and

1130
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:42,800
also just for every everybody really

1131
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:45,440
who's a ufo enthusiast or

1132
00:43:50,309 --> 00:43:48,800
curious about the ufo topic um he wrote

1133
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:50,319
a book clear intent the government

1134
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:51,920
government cover-up of the ufo

1135
00:43:57,990 --> 00:43:54,960
experience which was published in 84

1136
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:58,000
and his co-author lawrence fassett

1137
00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:00,240
that discussed that book discusses the

1138
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:02,240
government's top-secret investigations

1139
00:44:05,670 --> 00:44:04,160
of ufo sightings and argues

1140
00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:05,680
that the government possesses secret

1141
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:07,760
proof of the existence of ufos

1142
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:09,760
what part does he have to play regarding

1143
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:16,950
he was involved in the publication of

1144
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:17,440
the

1145
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:20,480
just cause newsletter

1146
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:22,960
and this came into play i think more in

1147
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:24,240
the second half of the

1148
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:28,400
1980s but later uh some years later with

1149
00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:30,240
brad sparks

1150
00:44:37,829 --> 00:44:34,720
brilliant paper

1151
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:37,839
about the origins of mj12 and it was

1152
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:38,480
based

1153
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:42,160
on uh transcripts or tapes

1154
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:45,440
that brought bob pratt had taken uh

1155
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:48,480
of conversations with bill moore

1156
00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:52,079
the idea being that uh bill moore and

1157
00:44:57,829 --> 00:44:54,480
richard doty were interested in writing

1158
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:57,839
a book about what uh

1159
00:45:00,950 --> 00:45:00,079
what bill moore believed what were the

1160
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,960
secrets

1161
00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:02,800
that the government was keeping about

1162
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:05,520
you know these recovered ufos and so on

1163
00:45:09,589 --> 00:45:06,880
and so forth

1164
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:09,599
and uh bob pratt apparently told him

1165
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:10,800
that they

1166
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:13,760
they they couldn't verify non-fiction

1167
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:14,880
information and that

1168
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:17,599
that it should be written as a fiction

1169
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:18,000
uh

1170
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:23,760
i don't know if bob pratt actually wrote

1171
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,040
a draft but

1172
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:27,200
it never came to anything a book was

1173
00:45:31,349 --> 00:45:28,880
never published but

1174
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:31,359
uh greenwood and sparks really get into

1175
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:33,760
some fascinating details

1176
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:37,440
in this whole sequence and uh

1177
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,000
it's one of the sources that i use both

1178
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,160
in creating my benowitz timeline

1179
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:44,800
and in writing this paper okay let's

1180
00:45:47,430 --> 00:45:45,200
talk

1181
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:47,440
just a little bit about brad sparks uh

1182
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:49,440
can you fill us in on his background

1183
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:50,240
just a little bit

1184
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:52,720
uh maybe uh so that our listeners are

1185
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:54,240
become more familiar with him

1186
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:57,280
regarding his being a researcher well

1187
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:00,640
he's a very very very good researcher

1188
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:04,400
and he goes i know he goes at least back

1189
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:06,720
to the 70s

1190
00:46:13,589 --> 00:46:10,240
he he's been associated i think mainly

1191
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:13,599
with the center for ufo studies

1192
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:16,960
and some with mufon uh and

1193
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:19,119
i've actually had conversations with him

1194
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:21,599
in the hall at a mufon symposium

1195
00:46:25,670 --> 00:46:24,400
several years back i i was doing mostly

1196
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:25,680
uh research

1197
00:46:28,870 --> 00:46:27,920
on the internet about mj-12 and i was i

1198
00:46:31,109 --> 00:46:28,880
was really

1199
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:31,119
uh having a lot of questions and i had

1200
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:33,119
conversations with stan freeman too

1201
00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:34,800
which is kind of comical

1202
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:37,599
but uh i i can't really give you a

1203
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:39,920
detailed biography about brad sparks

1204
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:40,720
right here

1205
00:46:45,990 --> 00:46:43,520
but he is a very well established and a

1206
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:46,000
very highly competent researcher

1207
00:46:49,270 --> 00:46:47,839
well i wanted to go ahead and talk a

1208
00:46:52,470 --> 00:46:49,280
little bit about

1209
00:46:54,230 --> 00:46:52,480
state police officer gabe valdez and

1210
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:54,240
wanted to mention before i ask you my

1211
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:56,480
question um that

1212
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,750
he actually his son

1213
00:47:08,710 --> 00:47:07,270
wrote a book called dulce bass the truth

1214
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:08,720
and evidence from the case

1215
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:12,880
files of gabe valdez by his son greg

1216
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:19,990
it's it's i'm not trying to act like a

1217
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:22,240
grammar nazi here or anything but

1218
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:25,520
um the book is not written that well if

1219
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:27,760
you're into syntax and grammar and stuff

1220
00:47:33,589 --> 00:47:29,599
like that

1221
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:33,599
i know guilty okay but anyway

1222
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:35,599
i think he needed an editor for this

1223
00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:36,960
book but

1224
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:38,800
just to mention a little bit about the

1225
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:40,160
summary of this book

1226
00:47:45,109 --> 00:47:43,359
it states um in 1976

1227
00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:45,119
gabe valdez became one of the leading

1228
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:47,280
investigators into the cattle mutilation

1229
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:48,720
mystery that was spreading across the

1230
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:49,119
u.s

1231
00:47:52,470 --> 00:47:50,480
based on his employment with the new

1232
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:52,480
mexico state police as he started

1233
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,720
investigating the mutilations on

1234
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:56,960
the gomez ranch outside of dulce new

1235
00:47:59,829 --> 00:47:58,800
mexico he stumbled into much more than

1236
00:48:02,150 --> 00:47:59,839
he bargained for

1237
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:02,160
his investigative findings led to a

1238
00:48:06,309 --> 00:48:03,920
close friendship with paul benowitz

1239
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:06,319
who was involved in a massive gover

1240
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:08,240
government authorized disinformation

1241
00:48:12,630 --> 00:48:10,319
campaign originating out of kirtland air

1242
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:12,640
force base in albuquerque new mexico

1243
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:14,720
the harrowing tale of paul benowitz led

1244
00:48:19,589 --> 00:48:16,480
to the story of the alleged underground

1245
00:48:21,349 --> 00:48:19,599
alien bases near dulce new mexico

1246
00:48:23,109 --> 00:48:21,359
for the first time you will see what

1247
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:23,119
really happened in dulce i can't read

1248
00:48:27,910 --> 00:48:24,800
anymore i'm sorry

1249
00:48:32,309 --> 00:48:27,920
it's just anyway moving along

1250
00:48:35,910 --> 00:48:32,319
i wanted to ask you uh tom um

1251
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:35,920
is it possible that uh

1252
00:48:43,109 --> 00:48:39,680
state police officer gabe valdez

1253
00:48:46,630 --> 00:48:43,119
may have innocently

1254
00:48:48,069 --> 00:48:46,640
and not just not meaning to in any way

1255
00:48:51,589 --> 00:48:48,079
shape or form

1256
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:51,599
played on the paranoid flags

1257
00:48:57,750 --> 00:48:54,720
going off like sirens probably

1258
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:57,760
for paul bennowitz

1259
00:49:02,230 --> 00:48:59,680
because here let me go ahead and give a

1260
00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:02,240
little bit more info on my question

1261
00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:06,880
i suspect it's possible that gabe valdez

1262
00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:09,119
was equally as stymied at times

1263
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:11,200
regarding what was going on

1264
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:13,520
and my understanding is he communicated

1265
00:49:16,309 --> 00:49:14,319
with paul

1266
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:16,319
benowitz off and on so i'm just

1267
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,000
wondering i'm guessing this is

1268
00:49:22,150 --> 00:49:20,640
this is not a fact it's just a question

1269
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:22,160
on my part

1270
00:49:29,349 --> 00:49:26,240
is it possible that he may have

1271
00:49:32,549 --> 00:49:29,359
been as paranoid to a degree

1272
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:32,559
about the topics we're discussing as

1273
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:33,760
paul bennowitz was

1274
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:36,319
and that caused paul also become a

1275
00:49:41,349 --> 00:49:39,760
little bit more amped up in his paranoia

1276
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:41,359
well here's here are a couple of things

1277
00:49:46,470 --> 00:49:44,640
that were going on

1278
00:49:48,950 --> 00:49:46,480
there like i mentioned there were there

1279
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:48,960
were extensive cattle mutilation

1280
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:49,680
problems

1281
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:52,319
happening in the western united states

1282
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:52,720
and

1283
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:55,440
in new mexico gate valdez had been

1284
00:50:00,230 --> 00:49:58,160
investigating them

1285
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:00,240
gabe valdez and maybe even paul

1286
00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:01,760
bennowitz as well

1287
00:50:05,829 --> 00:50:04,079
saw some strange things going on on

1288
00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:05,839
archie laden mesa

1289
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:09,920
they saw lights and so on and so forth

1290
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:13,040
richard doty claims that he when he was

1291
00:50:16,630 --> 00:50:13,760
working

1292
00:50:16,950 --> 00:50:16,640
with afosi out of kirtland that he went

1293
00:50:19,990 --> 00:50:16,960
up

1294
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:20,000
and checked with a special operations

1295
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:21,839
group in colorado

1296
00:50:26,309 --> 00:50:24,640
and they confirmed that they had been

1297
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:26,319
conducting exercises

1298
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:29,760
on archuleta mesa for example they had

1299
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:32,800
spotlights that pointed straight up so

1300
00:50:39,750 --> 00:50:36,079
that the helicopters knew where to land

1301
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:39,760
and and all this so if gabe valdez and

1302
00:50:43,990 --> 00:50:42,000
possibly paul benowitz were driving

1303
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:44,000
around the archuleta mesa

1304
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:46,480
area and they you know they saw these

1305
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:48,160
hovering lights and they saw these

1306
00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:48,880
lights

1307
00:50:51,910 --> 00:50:50,800
shoot shooting up out of the mesa and so

1308
00:50:54,549 --> 00:50:51,920
on and so forth

1309
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:54,559
you can understand how they might have

1310
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,280
felt that

1311
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:57,440
hey something really strange is going on

1312
00:51:01,750 --> 00:50:58,319
up there

1313
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:01,760
now it's one thing to realize that

1314
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:04,400
uh it appears to be very strange it's

1315
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:05,440
another thing

1316
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:08,400
to become completely convinced that it's

1317
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:10,160
an underground alien base

1318
00:51:16,549 --> 00:51:13,920
and that the aliens are invading right

1319
00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:16,559
now i can tell you from the study that

1320
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:18,960
i've done on the paul benowitz affair

1321
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:21,200
that i believe that by the time that he

1322
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:23,200
was fully in touch

1323
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:25,760
and had these meetings with actually a

1324
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:27,440
fairly large number of people on

1325
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:28,960
kirtland air force base

1326
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:32,800
and this is around uh october 1980

1327
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:35,440
that by the time that he got to that

1328
00:51:38,950 --> 00:51:36,400
point he was

1329
00:51:41,349 --> 00:51:38,960
well on his way to being really off

1330
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:41,359
almost off the deep end about aliens

1331
00:51:44,549 --> 00:51:44,000
you know that deep end aspect which is

1332
00:51:47,270 --> 00:51:44,559
mentioned

1333
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:47,280
often um and one of the authors i

1334
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:48,880
mentioned

1335
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:50,880
regarding their bios actually said he

1336
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:52,960
went utterly insane

1337
00:52:00,230 --> 00:51:59,190
how do we know that i'm not saying it

1338
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:00,240
didn't happen

1339
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:03,599
but i want our listeners who are kind of

1340
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:04,000
like

1341
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:07,280
novice to this topic they this is the

1342
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:09,119
first time they've heard about it

1343
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:11,680
and they're wondering well gee why is

1344
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:13,839
this poor person paul benowitz

1345
00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:15,760
being accused of having gone totally

1346
00:52:20,549 --> 00:52:17,040
insane

1347
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:20,559
um and uh you know how do we know that

1348
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:22,480
can you please for our listeners detail

1349
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,880
why folks suspect that he may have gone

1350
00:52:29,750 --> 00:52:26,960
over the edge

1351
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:29,760
well we don't i think we'd have to

1352
00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:30,480
interview

1353
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:34,240
his family members and paul benowitz had

1354
00:52:37,829 --> 00:52:35,280
a business called

1355
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:37,839
thunder scientific labs right and it's

1356
00:52:42,069 --> 00:52:38,960
still going today

1357
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:42,079
you can look it up on the internet now i

1358
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:43,839
don't know if his family members want to

1359
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:45,359
talk to anybody about it

1360
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:48,960
but richard dodie has said that uh

1361
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:51,280
paul benowitz had become extremely

1362
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:52,319
paranoid

1363
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:54,800
bill moore has said the same thing these

1364
00:52:58,390 --> 00:52:56,319
are people that visited

1365
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:58,400
paul benowitz at his home and that knew

1366
00:53:03,670 --> 00:53:00,559
him even as a friend

1367
00:53:04,069 --> 00:53:03,680
uh leo sprinkle dr leo sprinkle said

1368
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:04,079
that

1369
00:53:10,549 --> 00:53:07,520
benno's

1370
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:10,559
house ben was carrying pistols and a

1371
00:53:13,270 --> 00:53:11,520
rifle

1372
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:13,280
you know and he was paranoid that the

1373
00:53:17,829 --> 00:53:15,040
aliens were after him

1374
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:17,839
uh i know that christian lambright uh

1375
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:19,040
had the same

1376
00:53:22,390 --> 00:53:21,280
same impression about paul benoit so we

1377
00:53:24,950 --> 00:53:22,400
have three

1378
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:24,960
four or five or more people saying who

1379
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:26,800
knew paul benowitz who had visited with

1380
00:53:29,430 --> 00:53:27,280
him

1381
00:53:32,710 --> 00:53:29,440
saying that he he had reached this state

1382
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:32,720
of really extreme paranoia and upset

1383
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:34,960
well do we know if he was hospitalized

1384
00:53:39,109 --> 00:53:36,720
prior to his suicide or anything like

1385
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:42,150
uh i have heard that he was that he's he

1386
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:44,240
was hospitalized and maybe more than

1387
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,200
once now

1388
00:53:49,589 --> 00:53:47,520
i've heard the word suicide but i i

1389
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,599
haven't heard very much about that

1390
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,599
and i'm not inclined to believe that

1391
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:53,359
until i see a death certificate and i

1392
00:53:57,910 --> 00:53:55,760
don't think you can get about

1393
00:54:02,309 --> 00:53:57,920
you know the state the state records

1394
00:54:07,990 --> 00:54:05,430
uh yeah actually uh dr leo sprinkle is

1395
00:54:11,349 --> 00:54:08,000
one reason why i got involved

1396
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:11,359
in the ufo topic among many other folks

1397
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:13,359
who dedicated their lives to the ufo

1398
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:14,400
topic

1399
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:17,280
um he actually studied a really

1400
00:54:20,950 --> 00:54:18,960
interesting case i just wanted to

1401
00:54:24,230 --> 00:54:20,960
mention a little bit about it

1402
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:24,240
uh it was the case

1403
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:27,680
of a an individual who lived in wyoming

1404
00:54:33,030 --> 00:54:29,760
which is where dr leo sprinkle

1405
00:54:35,109 --> 00:54:33,040
uh practiced um and

1406
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:35,119
uh had his practice and it was a

1407
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:36,720
first-person story

1408
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:38,559
it's called by the way i'm going to

1409
00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:40,559
mention a book here

1410
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:42,960
written by one of the relatives of the

1411
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:44,400
individual who

1412
00:54:47,910 --> 00:54:46,400
allegedly went through this experience

1413
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:47,920
that dr leo

1414
00:54:51,670 --> 00:54:49,839
sprinkle actually studied and spoke to

1415
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:51,680
the individual as well

1416
00:54:55,349 --> 00:54:53,280
it's called alien abduction of the

1417
00:54:56,549 --> 00:54:55,359
wyoming hunter first person story of

1418
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:56,559
carl higdon

1419
00:55:00,549 --> 00:54:59,920
uh which uh it says october 25th 1974 is

1420
00:55:03,589 --> 00:55:00,559
when uh

1421
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:03,599
it happened and marjorie a higdon is the

1422
00:55:09,030 --> 00:55:04,880
author of that book

1423
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:09,040
um he actually spoke to carl higdon and

1424
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:10,880
when i heard about that case i was

1425
00:55:16,069 --> 00:55:12,640
absolutely mesmerized

1426
00:55:16,630 --> 00:55:16,079
and uh from that from that point on

1427
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:16,640
among

1428
00:55:20,710 --> 00:55:18,559
many other stories i was researching

1429
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:20,720
regarding the ufo et topic

1430
00:55:24,789 --> 00:55:23,839
um thank you to dr leo sprinkle for

1431
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:24,799
having

1432
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:26,880
published information on it that he did

1433
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:28,240
because it really

1434
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:30,720
it caused me to become more enthusiastic

1435
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:32,720
and more acutely interested in the topic

1436
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:33,359
but

1437
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:36,160
anyway i wanted to ask did i just i'm

1438
00:55:40,710 --> 00:55:37,920
sorry could i just point out one thing

1439
00:55:42,150 --> 00:55:40,720
uh frank you mentioned uh paul benowitz

1440
00:55:44,309 --> 00:55:42,160
dying but

1441
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:44,319
paul according to the information that i

1442
00:55:47,750 --> 00:55:45,599
have

1443
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:47,760
paul benowitz reached the state of

1444
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:48,640
complete

1445
00:55:56,069 --> 00:55:53,040
nervous and physical collapse in 1988.

1446
00:55:59,190 --> 00:55:56,079
richard doty left the air force in

1447
00:56:02,549 --> 00:55:59,200
october november 1988.

1448
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:02,559
paul benowitz did not die until 2003

1449
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:05,680
that was 15 years later yeah yeah

1450
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:07,119
i'm glad you brought that up that's an

1451
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:08,480
excellent point it's one that i've run

1452
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:10,000
down in the past uh

1453
00:56:14,870 --> 00:56:13,200
uh appreciate that oh uh doubling back

1454
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:14,880
uh you talked a little bit about

1455
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:17,920
valdez's work with the dulce underground

1456
00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:18,799
base and

1457
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:21,280
i know we're uh straying a little bit uh

1458
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:22,880
but someone else who's gotten a little

1459
00:56:28,470 --> 00:56:25,200
bit of traction who's no longer with us

1460
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:28,480
uh died under curious circumstances is a

1461
00:56:32,230 --> 00:56:30,079
fellow by the name of phil schneider

1462
00:56:33,589 --> 00:56:32,240
who got uh some mileage out of uh

1463
00:56:35,750 --> 00:56:33,599
recounting some tales

1464
00:56:37,829 --> 00:56:35,760
uh regarding uh the dulce bass uh

1465
00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:37,839
claimed he was maimed as a result of his

1466
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:38,640
encounters

1467
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,640
uh with aliens in there uh have you

1468
00:56:44,309 --> 00:56:41,920
looked at uh his

1469
00:56:47,430 --> 00:56:44,319
material at all and uh do you think it

1470
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:47,440
uh has any merit whatsoever

1471
00:56:52,549 --> 00:56:50,480
yes i've i've heard his claims and i

1472
00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:52,559
know you don't like richard dodie frank

1473
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:54,480
but dodie says that it's a bunch of

1474
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:55,359
nonsense

1475
00:56:59,670 --> 00:56:57,599
yeah i don't care for uh phil schneider

1476
00:57:01,670 --> 00:56:59,680
uh regarding his story i think that

1477
00:57:03,030 --> 00:57:01,680
there are a few people who actually

1478
00:57:05,349 --> 00:57:03,040
really researched

1479
00:57:06,470 --> 00:57:05,359
his background and the stories he had to

1480
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:06,480
uh

1481
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:12,799
research or hard work they discovered

1482
00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:14,079
that there are a lot of holes in his

1483
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:14,880
story

1484
00:57:18,150 --> 00:57:16,559
and that he was contradicting himself

1485
00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:18,160
and and the light and just stealing

1486
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:20,480
material from old star trek episodes

1487
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:21,839
if you actually look at his

1488
00:57:28,150 --> 00:57:24,480
presentations

1489
00:57:31,270 --> 00:57:28,160
on gabe valdez's son's book yes

1490
00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:31,280
the thing that got me about that book

1491
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:32,000
was

1492
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:35,280
he had photographs of these

1493
00:57:39,030 --> 00:57:38,160
small buildings on stilts in the

1494
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:39,040
archuleta

1495
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:42,079
mesa area and he was saying that they

1496
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:42,799
were

1497
00:57:48,950 --> 00:57:46,720
surveillance platforms uh to surveil

1498
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:48,960
these nefarious activities that were

1499
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:49,920
going on there

1500
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:51,680
i looked at those they're obviously

1501
00:57:58,710 --> 00:57:55,280
hunting blinds

1502
00:58:01,430 --> 00:57:58,720
that's hilarious um now there

1503
00:58:02,470 --> 00:58:01,440
do not appear to be that many folks

1504
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:02,480
involved

1505
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,000
on the mj 12 topic um

1506
00:58:09,270 --> 00:58:08,400
i believe that there was a book written

1507
00:58:12,549 --> 00:58:09,280
by a

1508
00:58:15,589 --> 00:58:12,559
well-known uh ufo well a well-known

1509
00:58:18,950 --> 00:58:15,599
researcher who also is involved in

1510
00:58:20,309 --> 00:58:18,960
um filling out uh foia's whenever he

1511
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:20,319
feels he needs to

1512
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:22,000
to find out more information from our

1513
00:58:25,430 --> 00:58:24,240
government his name is christian

1514
00:58:27,990 --> 00:58:25,440
lambright

1515
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,000
and believe he wrote a book called ex

1516
00:58:31,510 --> 00:58:29,920
descending

1517
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:31,520
uh stanton friedman wrote a book about

1518
00:58:36,789 --> 00:58:33,119
it as well yes

1519
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:36,799
and so wanted to ask i think i saw that

1520
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:37,760
you had some

1521
00:58:42,230 --> 00:58:40,160
reference notes to a few folks uh

1522
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:42,240
dedicated to them in your article

1523
00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:45,599
um how in how much

1524
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:48,240
did what christian lambright wrote how

1525
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:50,240
much did that influence the topic

1526
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:52,640
and the mj 12 article topic that you

1527
00:58:55,829 --> 00:58:53,280
wrote

1528
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:55,839
well in the interest of full disclosure

1529
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:56,480
and to be

1530
00:59:01,030 --> 00:58:59,520
completely honest i had purchased x

1531
00:59:04,549 --> 00:59:01,040
descending

1532
00:59:05,270 --> 00:59:04,559
uh years ago and read it when i wrote my

1533
00:59:07,750 --> 00:59:05,280
paper

1534
00:59:08,710 --> 00:59:07,760
on the mj 12 the counterintelligence

1535
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,720
angle

1536
00:59:12,870 --> 00:59:10,880
i completely forgotten that half of

1537
00:59:13,910 --> 00:59:12,880
christian lambright's book is about paul

1538
00:59:17,190 --> 00:59:13,920
bennowitz

1539
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:17,200
okay so you and i chant had had some

1540
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:19,040
conversations about that

1541
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:21,119
and this has spurred me to really dig

1542
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:23,040
into the paul benoit's affair

1543
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:25,680
and try to pull up uh all the readily

1544
00:59:31,030 --> 00:59:27,920
available information that's out there

1545
00:59:31,430 --> 00:59:31,040
so i have re-read christian lambright's

1546
00:59:33,589 --> 00:59:31,440
book

1547
00:59:35,670 --> 00:59:33,599
you know you know very carefully and and

1548
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:35,680
a lot of the information he has in there

1549
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:37,599
about paul benoit's has gone into my

1550
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:40,079
timeline yeah i didn't have much

1551
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:42,960
and that yeah let me uh jump back in as

1552
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:45,599
far as my opinions on dodie i would say

1553
00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:46,480
that

1554
00:59:51,990 --> 00:59:49,839
to say

1555
00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:52,000
i do believe that he was involved in the

1556
00:59:56,230 --> 00:59:54,480
concoction of the mj-12 documents

1557
00:59:57,990 --> 00:59:56,240
and uh they've actually been really

1558
01:00:00,470 --> 00:59:58,000
helpful to me when i first

1559
01:00:01,990 --> 01:00:00,480
started researching ufos a little bit

1560
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:02,000
more than a decade ago

1561
01:00:05,349 --> 01:00:04,880
it was sort of a a cheat sheet where a

1562
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:05,359
lot of

1563
01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:07,440
that material was actually very helpful

1564
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:09,119
to me trying to dig through

1565
01:00:14,230 --> 01:00:12,160
mountains of ufo information and even

1566
01:00:16,549 --> 01:00:14,240
though i always looked at it somewhat uh

1567
01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:16,559
more than a little skeptically and there

1568
01:00:20,549 --> 01:00:17,760
was enough

1569
01:00:22,390 --> 01:00:20,559
it's enough uh based on fact there's

1570
01:00:24,309 --> 01:00:22,400
enough based on fact there

1571
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:24,319
that i actually found them very helpful

1572
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:25,440
and i i actually

1573
01:00:28,870 --> 01:00:27,040
kind of have the same opinion towards

1574
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:28,880
these uh wilson docks that have been

1575
01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:30,480
floating around over the last couple

1576
01:00:32,950 --> 01:00:31,119
years

1577
01:00:34,470 --> 01:00:32,960
that there's enough material in there

1578
01:00:36,390 --> 01:00:34,480
that provides leads

1579
01:00:37,829 --> 01:00:36,400
uh that is helpful it's all kind of

1580
01:00:40,309 --> 01:00:37,839
compiled into

1581
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:40,319
one nice neat little package and it's

1582
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,920
very helpful i think uh

1583
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:43,680
the mistake and it's not one that you're

1584
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:45,200
making but i think that a lot of people

1585
01:00:48,150 --> 01:00:45,680
do

1586
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,160
is to either say yes this is a literal

1587
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:50,240
truth these are actual documents as

1588
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:51,440
compared with saying

1589
01:00:55,030 --> 01:00:53,280
well these are really well researched a

1590
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:55,040
lot of this stuff

1591
01:00:59,190 --> 01:00:57,520
does actually check out it's interesting

1592
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:59,200
they're well researched and

1593
01:01:03,190 --> 01:01:01,280
let's see where we can go from here

1594
01:01:05,589 --> 01:01:03,200
rather than just accepting them

1595
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:05,599
as being a hundred percent legitimate so

1596
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:07,520
uh just uh one to clear that up a little

1597
01:01:10,390 --> 01:01:08,240
bit

1598
01:01:12,470 --> 01:01:10,400
good i want to mention a few things one

1599
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:12,480
is i had asked christian lambright who's

1600
01:01:16,870 --> 01:01:14,160
a wonderful person

1601
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:16,880
uh to uh join us on the show i don't

1602
01:01:23,030 --> 01:01:19,520
think he had the opportunity to do so

1603
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:23,040
um however um

1604
01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:25,200
uh it would have been nice to be able to

1605
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:26,480
hear a little bit of input

1606
01:01:30,470 --> 01:01:28,400
he may have been able to share regarding

1607
01:01:33,589 --> 01:01:30,480
his book and his past history

1608
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:33,599
with uh having uh been able to

1609
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:37,520
uh to give us his insight

1610
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:39,119
having known a few of the folks

1611
01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:41,040
regarding this topic that we're talking

1612
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:42,160
about today

1613
01:01:46,150 --> 01:01:44,799
um so i did share with tom that i was

1614
01:01:46,470 --> 01:01:46,160
hoping that christian lambright would

1615
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:46,480
share

1616
01:01:50,870 --> 01:01:48,400
i would would actually join us on the

1617
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:50,880
show but he was not able to do so

1618
01:01:55,829 --> 01:01:54,880
so um my having talked with tom whitmore

1619
01:01:57,750 --> 01:01:55,839
regarding

1620
01:01:59,190 --> 01:01:57,760
christian lambright was limited to that

1621
01:02:01,589 --> 01:01:59,200
respect and only

1622
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:01,599
uh just talking about his book uh the

1623
01:02:04,630 --> 01:02:03,280
other thing i wanted to mention

1624
01:02:06,630 --> 01:02:04,640
is i thought it was interesting in

1625
01:02:09,990 --> 01:02:06,640
mirage men

1626
01:02:11,589 --> 01:02:10,000
how um and frank you'll have to

1627
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:11,599
you'll have to correct me if i'm in if

1628
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:13,280
i'm not right okay

1629
01:02:21,510 --> 01:02:16,559
but in that movie i i

1630
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:21,520
almost was pretty sure i remember

1631
01:02:27,990 --> 01:02:24,880
that it was the the mutilations that

1632
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:28,000
were occurring out there in new mexico

1633
01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:31,760
and the archuleta mesa were due to

1634
01:02:38,870 --> 01:02:35,200
a possible nuclear program

1635
01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:38,880
uh kind of a check on the radiation

1636
01:02:42,870 --> 01:02:41,760
levels and the only way to find out more

1637
01:02:46,390 --> 01:02:42,880
about that

1638
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:46,400
is to actually have cut up these poor

1639
01:02:51,190 --> 01:02:47,520
creatures

1640
01:02:54,309 --> 01:02:51,200
to find out if the radiation levels

1641
01:02:57,829 --> 01:02:54,319
were at a certain point and evidently

1642
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:57,839
in that area i guess allegedly they were

1643
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:58,319
very

1644
01:03:03,270 --> 01:03:00,559
high can you fill us in a little bit

1645
01:03:05,029 --> 01:03:03,280
more on that i i like yeah

1646
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:05,039
you know i have watched the movie but it

1647
01:03:09,670 --> 01:03:06,480
was a while ago

1648
01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:09,680
so i yeah don't remember that sorry

1649
01:03:13,270 --> 01:03:12,160
a little big if tom's memory is better

1650
01:03:16,150 --> 01:03:13,280
on that than mine is i

1651
01:03:18,150 --> 01:03:16,160
i don't recall well i just just this is

1652
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:18,160
just an aside and i wanted tom's input

1653
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:19,839
on it aside from yours

1654
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:22,000
uh so whoever jumps in first that's on

1655
01:03:26,470 --> 01:03:23,039
you guys but

1656
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:26,480
you know if it is true

1657
01:03:29,510 --> 01:03:29,119
that it turned out it was u.s air force

1658
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:29,520
or

1659
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:32,480
what whatever whatever branch of our

1660
01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:34,240
military was there

1661
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:36,720
dissecting these poor creatures to find

1662
01:03:41,510 --> 01:03:37,839
out if there was

1663
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:41,520
uh any level of radiation in their uh

1664
01:03:47,589 --> 01:03:44,720
tissues or organs or whatever um

1665
01:03:48,870 --> 01:03:47,599
and it was not you know some e.t

1666
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:48,880
interference

1667
01:03:53,109 --> 01:03:51,839
uh you know some nefarious et related

1668
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:53,119
program

1669
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:56,400
at all then it turns out

1670
01:04:00,870 --> 01:03:59,839
that that mutilation uh that rash of

1671
01:04:02,789 --> 01:04:00,880
them going on

1672
01:04:05,190 --> 01:04:02,799
had nothing to do with that topic

1673
01:04:08,230 --> 01:04:05,200
thoughts on that

1674
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:08,240
well i think this whole idea that the

1675
01:04:13,190 --> 01:04:10,559
government was behind

1676
01:04:14,549 --> 01:04:13,200
uh mutilating the cows because of

1677
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:14,559
radiation i

1678
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:16,240
have a lot of problems with that for a

1679
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:18,160
couple of reasons

1680
01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:21,440
uh now chant i believe you're

1681
01:04:25,829 --> 01:04:23,440
familiar enough with new mexico i

1682
01:04:27,750 --> 01:04:25,839
believe that a lot of new mexico land as

1683
01:04:30,549 --> 01:04:27,760
bureau of land management

1684
01:04:32,630 --> 01:04:30,559
land so what's to stop the government

1685
01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:32,640
from putting as many cows as they want

1686
01:04:36,950 --> 01:04:34,960
wherever they think there's radiation

1687
01:04:39,670 --> 01:04:36,960
you know and then do their testing that

1688
01:04:42,870 --> 01:04:41,750
and another thing is why not just go up

1689
01:04:45,029 --> 01:04:42,880
to the ranchers

1690
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:45,039
may we please buy we'd like to purchase

1691
01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:46,480
one or more of your

1692
01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:49,359
cows we're doing an environmental study

1693
01:04:53,510 --> 01:04:50,799
you know and they could pay them

1694
01:04:54,710 --> 01:04:53,520
10 times what the cows are worth and cut

1695
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:54,720
them up to their hearts of

1696
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:56,640
content you know it just doesn't make

1697
01:05:00,150 --> 01:04:58,319
any sense i i do have

1698
01:05:01,430 --> 01:05:00,160
it that way i do have something to say

1699
01:05:05,750 --> 01:05:01,440
that

1700
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:05,760
um if if it was a top secret level

1701
01:05:09,430 --> 01:05:08,720
type of program that they were doing

1702
01:05:14,069 --> 01:05:09,440
being any

1703
01:05:16,630 --> 01:05:14,079
branch of our government or department

1704
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:16,640
they would not want to ask them anything

1705
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:18,160
at all meaning the farmers or the

1706
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:19,839
ranchers because

1707
01:05:23,349 --> 01:05:21,599
they don't want them to be privy to that

1708
01:05:25,190 --> 01:05:23,359
kind of level of knowledge

1709
01:05:27,109 --> 01:05:25,200
that's a guess i'm not saying that's

1710
01:05:27,829 --> 01:05:27,119
true yeah i mean the simple work around

1711
01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:27,839
to that is they

1712
01:05:30,789 --> 01:05:29,280
they just set up some kind of a shell

1713
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:30,799
company and they just stay i want to buy

1714
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:32,480
a couple of your cows

1715
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:34,400
you know it's very easy for them to do

1716
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:35,520
that too so

1717
01:05:39,270 --> 01:05:37,440
yeah if they wanted to hide their tracks

1718
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:39,280
you know that's been done before

1719
01:05:43,270 --> 01:05:40,880
there's something folks can look up if

1720
01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:43,280
they wish called crypto ag

1721
01:05:47,589 --> 01:05:45,599
there is a faction of our uh us

1722
01:05:50,309 --> 01:05:47,599
government that actually created a

1723
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:50,319
a uh a company in the manner you just

1724
01:05:53,190 --> 01:05:51,039
stated

1725
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:53,200
and they were actually uh on the stock

1726
01:05:57,349 --> 01:05:54,480
market

1727
01:05:59,190 --> 01:05:57,359
so that anyway yes that is totally

1728
01:06:01,510 --> 01:05:59,200
possible however

1729
01:06:02,829 --> 01:06:01,520
you know it's it's not unusual for a

1730
01:06:06,309 --> 01:06:02,839
rancher

1731
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:06,319
um or a farmer or anybody who just has

1732
01:06:12,309 --> 01:06:08,640
one cow to milk okay out there

1733
01:06:14,950 --> 01:06:12,319
uh anywhere to say no i won't do it

1734
01:06:17,510 --> 01:06:14,960
and that's because they don't want to

1735
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:17,520
share or sell their animals to anybody

1736
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:19,200
they have a certain relationship with

1737
01:06:22,309 --> 01:06:20,640
them and that's just how it is

1738
01:06:23,829 --> 01:06:22,319
it's been for generations and their

1739
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:23,839
families so

1740
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:25,839
you know the it's quite possible that

1741
01:06:29,510 --> 01:06:27,680
the us government just felt like

1742
01:06:31,270 --> 01:06:29,520
they didn't want any rumors to fly

1743
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:31,280
around at all about anything

1744
01:06:35,349 --> 01:06:33,359
or any new companies in the area you've

1745
01:06:38,549 --> 01:06:35,359
got to understand these are small

1746
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:38,559
areas in the southwest i mean like

1747
01:06:42,309 --> 01:06:41,359
they probably have a few stop signs one

1748
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:42,319
gas station

1749
01:06:46,069 --> 01:06:45,680
a very tiny population a new company in

1750
01:06:49,270 --> 01:06:46,079
any

1751
01:06:50,789 --> 01:06:49,280
area that small uh you know there's

1752
01:06:51,270 --> 01:06:50,799
going to be a lot of gossip flying

1753
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:51,280
around

1754
01:06:55,349 --> 01:06:53,200
and people want to know all about them

1755
01:06:55,910 --> 01:06:55,359
that kind of thing i think that the us

1756
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:55,920
government

1757
01:06:59,670 --> 01:06:58,079
if that story is true regarding their

1758
01:07:02,470 --> 01:06:59,680
having tested

1759
01:07:03,029 --> 01:07:02,480
and mutilated these poor creatures you

1760
01:07:05,589 --> 01:07:03,039
know

1761
01:07:09,349 --> 01:07:05,599
they they did it they just did it

1762
01:07:12,789 --> 01:07:11,270
you may be right i i have a lot of

1763
01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:12,799
problems with it now i've been out to

1764
01:07:15,829 --> 01:07:14,000
dulce new mexico

1765
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:15,839
and believe me it's out in the middle of

1766
01:07:19,430 --> 01:07:17,760
nowhere yeah

1767
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:19,440
now it's not unusual for the us

1768
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,520
government to ask an entire town to not

1769
01:07:25,750 --> 01:07:23,599
say anything that's been done before

1770
01:07:27,510 --> 01:07:25,760
i think it may have been dulce folks

1771
01:07:30,789 --> 01:07:27,520
will have to check on that

1772
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:30,799
but there were some uh top secret or

1773
01:07:35,589 --> 01:07:33,760
a secret level uh type of programs going

1774
01:07:36,950 --> 01:07:35,599
on somewhere in new mexico i believe it

1775
01:07:39,029 --> 01:07:36,960
may have been dulce where

1776
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:39,039
uh towns folks were actually asked to

1777
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:40,079
sign something

1778
01:07:45,670 --> 01:07:43,200
uh in order to not uh

1779
01:07:47,589 --> 01:07:45,680
share any any information they might uh

1780
01:07:50,150 --> 01:07:47,599
observe or find out about

1781
01:07:50,630 --> 01:07:50,160
um anyway uh so i'm really glad we were

1782
01:07:52,789 --> 01:07:50,640
able to

1783
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:52,799
to cover that topic thank you so much

1784
01:07:55,190 --> 01:07:53,680
and uh

1785
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:55,200
also tom did you have any more

1786
01:07:59,270 --> 01:07:56,640
information you wanted to share with us

1787
01:08:03,910 --> 01:07:59,280
on the mj12 topic

1788
01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:06,150
i i'm going to be working on a lot of

1789
01:08:11,510 --> 01:08:08,640
different papers and there are different

1790
01:08:13,589 --> 01:08:11,520
subjects for example uh i've told you

1791
01:08:14,710 --> 01:08:13,599
i've been working on this paul benowitz

1792
01:08:16,870 --> 01:08:14,720
paper but

1793
01:08:18,149 --> 01:08:16,880
i'm going to be working on a paper uh

1794
01:08:22,950 --> 01:08:18,159
that i'm going to title

1795
01:08:26,550 --> 01:08:22,960
before mj 12. and it's a series of

1796
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:26,560
events and claims and stories

1797
01:08:32,789 --> 01:08:29,920
that occurred before this whole sequence

1798
01:08:34,870 --> 01:08:32,799
uh arose in the 1980s and this is going

1799
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:34,880
back to the 40s and 50s

1800
01:08:39,189 --> 01:08:37,920
and up through the years now

1801
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:39,199
yeah just that for a little

1802
01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:40,960
clarification does this

1803
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:44,400
relate to uh goings-on within the ufo

1804
01:08:48,709 --> 01:08:46,400
field or are you talking more about

1805
01:08:50,229 --> 01:08:48,719
looking at it and the government and

1806
01:08:51,910 --> 01:08:50,239
what the government was actually doing

1807
01:08:54,630 --> 01:08:51,920
regarding ufos i mean it's a

1808
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:54,640
it it's not a secret it's a matter of a

1809
01:08:58,149 --> 01:08:55,920
public record that

1810
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:58,159
truman was briefed on a quarterly basis

1811
01:09:02,229 --> 01:08:58,960
by his uh

1812
01:09:03,030 --> 01:09:02,239
air force chief of staff uh general uh

1813
01:09:05,269 --> 01:09:03,040
landry

1814
01:09:06,070 --> 01:09:05,279
uh for example that there were meetings

1815
01:09:09,349 --> 01:09:06,080
in the white house

1816
01:09:10,149 --> 01:09:09,359
uh uh regarding uh ufo uh uh the ufo

1817
01:09:13,910 --> 01:09:10,159
incident

1818
01:09:15,030 --> 01:09:13,920
over washington dc in 1952 and uh you

1819
01:09:18,309 --> 01:09:15,040
know

1820
01:09:19,189 --> 01:09:18,319
the uh truman years are pretty well

1821
01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:19,199
covered

1822
01:09:22,950 --> 01:09:20,960
the truman library has done a really

1823
01:09:24,950 --> 01:09:22,960
nice job as far as

1824
01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:24,960
getting a lot of information together

1825
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:26,239
and some of that

1826
01:09:29,829 --> 01:09:28,560
does include the ufo stuff the other

1827
01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:29,839
libraries maybe not

1828
01:09:33,749 --> 01:09:32,239
quite as well but that period is pretty

1829
01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:33,759
well covered and it's uh pretty

1830
01:09:38,390 --> 01:09:35,600
interesting

1831
01:09:40,229 --> 01:09:38,400
yes well there there are just some

1832
01:09:44,390 --> 01:09:40,239
things that

1833
01:09:48,630 --> 01:09:44,400
i think in terms of general public

1834
01:09:50,390 --> 01:09:48,640
uh perception could have helped to

1835
01:09:53,430 --> 01:09:50,400
contribute

1836
01:09:55,030 --> 01:09:53,440
to the idea that something like mj-12

1837
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:55,040
could have existed

1838
01:09:58,390 --> 01:09:56,800
so i'm just going to go over a few of

1839
01:10:00,550 --> 01:09:58,400
those things that have occurred over the

1840
01:10:03,350 --> 01:10:00,560
years

1841
01:10:03,590 --> 01:10:03,360
there's also the the men in black angle

1842
01:10:11,430 --> 01:10:03,600
and

1843
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:11,440
uh uh your classic men in black

1844
01:10:14,630 --> 01:10:14,080
but rather you know the government side

1845
01:10:18,070 --> 01:10:14,640
of it

1846
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:18,080
and bill moore pointed out in a very

1847
01:10:22,070 --> 01:10:20,320
interesting but very obscure article and

1848
01:10:23,270 --> 01:10:22,080
i'm one of the very few people that has

1849
01:10:25,590 --> 01:10:23,280
a copy of it

1850
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,600
that he pointed out these this

1851
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:27,360
particular

1852
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:30,560
uh group in the air force that that does

1853
01:10:35,510 --> 01:10:33,360
some nefarious things they have actors

1854
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:35,520
they have con men that can deceive

1855
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:37,199
people and do things

1856
01:10:40,709 --> 01:10:39,760
so i'm going to be looking at that as

1857
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:40,719
well

1858
01:10:43,830 --> 01:10:42,960
and i'm going to be looking at mj 12

1859
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:43,840
from the counter

1860
01:10:48,950 --> 01:10:46,800
from the uh psychological warfare angle

1861
01:10:51,350 --> 01:10:48,960
and so on and so forth so

1862
01:10:53,430 --> 01:10:51,360
i'm trying to refer to things that

1863
01:10:55,830 --> 01:10:53,440
actually exist

1864
01:10:57,189 --> 01:10:55,840
and and not make claims you know that i

1865
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:57,199
can't support

1866
01:11:01,830 --> 01:11:00,320
understood now uh james carrion's name

1867
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,840
has uh come up

1868
01:11:04,950 --> 01:11:04,080
in the past and uh you worked with him

1869
01:11:08,229 --> 01:11:04,960
as a

1870
01:11:10,070 --> 01:11:08,239
part of mufon uh for a time there he was

1871
01:11:12,709 --> 01:11:10,080
actually the mufon director

1872
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,719
and he resigned he was uh rather upset

1873
01:11:18,070 --> 01:11:15,120
uh regarding uh the bigelow money that

1874
01:11:19,990 --> 01:11:18,080
we know now uh came uh from the pentagon

1875
01:11:23,110 --> 01:11:20,000
uh the bigelow money that was being

1876
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:23,120
uh passed to mufon uh during the uh

1877
01:11:27,590 --> 01:11:25,520
during the run of the uh the atip

1878
01:11:30,229 --> 01:11:27,600
program uh you worked with carrion

1879
01:11:30,709 --> 01:11:30,239
and he is of the opinion that the entire

1880
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:30,719
uh

1881
01:11:33,990 --> 01:11:33,040
ufo field i'm probably oversimplifying

1882
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:34,000
but the entire

1883
01:11:37,510 --> 01:11:36,960
uh ufo field is a sort of a counter

1884
01:11:39,590 --> 01:11:37,520
intel

1885
01:11:41,510 --> 01:11:39,600
operation now uh can you give us your

1886
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:41,520
thoughts on that carrying and having uh

1887
01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:42,719
work with him a little bit

1888
01:11:49,830 --> 01:11:46,640
and then on his uh uh his thesis there

1889
01:11:52,470 --> 01:11:49,840
yes well uh james carrion uh was in the

1890
01:11:54,950 --> 01:11:52,480
military and i think he worked

1891
01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:54,960
in intelligence in some way or another

1892
01:11:57,830 --> 01:11:57,120
now a lot of people in the military work

1893
01:12:03,750 --> 01:11:57,840
in

1894
01:12:07,669 --> 01:12:03,760
experience that

1895
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:07,679
uh this uh caused him to be

1896
01:12:12,390 --> 01:12:10,800
to perceive certain things in in the

1897
01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:12,400
intelligence realm

1898
01:12:18,070 --> 01:12:15,360
and he ran across an article about a

1899
01:12:21,430 --> 01:12:18,080
study that was being done in new zealand

1900
01:12:24,229 --> 01:12:21,440
about creating tsunami tsunamis

1901
01:12:25,669 --> 01:12:24,239
with with nuclear bombs with atomic

1902
01:12:28,229 --> 01:12:25,679
bombs

1903
01:12:30,390 --> 01:12:28,239
and he found that to be coincidental

1904
01:12:34,310 --> 01:12:30,400
with certain other things that were

1905
01:12:37,189 --> 01:12:34,320
that were going on at the time and

1906
01:12:38,709 --> 01:12:37,199
he he ran with that and started working

1907
01:12:42,149 --> 01:12:38,719
on the thesis

1908
01:12:45,430 --> 01:12:42,159
that the whole well that at least much

1909
01:12:49,750 --> 01:12:45,440
of the ufo problem has arisen

1910
01:12:52,950 --> 01:12:49,760
out of psychological warfare uh

1911
01:12:56,229 --> 01:12:52,960
efforts by the air force and

1912
01:12:57,430 --> 01:12:56,239
he goes back to the time of the ghost

1913
01:13:00,630 --> 01:12:57,440
rockets

1914
01:13:01,669 --> 01:13:00,640
in in scandinavia uh i think he did a

1915
01:13:03,510 --> 01:13:01,679
lot of research

1916
01:13:04,790 --> 01:13:03,520
at the national archives he did some

1917
01:13:07,350 --> 01:13:04,800
good research

1918
01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:07,360
particularly concerning general

1919
01:13:11,590 --> 01:13:08,640
vandenberg

1920
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:11,600
who he says was very involved in

1921
01:13:15,510 --> 01:13:13,199
psychological warfare

1922
01:13:18,070 --> 01:13:15,520
during world war ii and carried this

1923
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:18,080
over into the 1950s

1924
01:13:21,669 --> 01:13:20,719
um i got the impression like you did

1925
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:21,679
frank

1926
01:13:24,709 --> 01:13:23,760
that he thinks that the whole ufo

1927
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:24,719
problem

1928
01:13:28,790 --> 01:13:26,320
was has been created by these

1929
01:13:31,669 --> 01:13:28,800
psychological warfare

1930
01:13:32,390 --> 01:13:31,679
efforts and it's similar to another

1931
01:13:33,990 --> 01:13:32,400
gentleman

1932
01:13:35,750 --> 01:13:34,000
and i can't remember his name right now

1933
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:35,760
another senior moment

1934
01:13:39,430 --> 01:13:38,800
but he he believed that the cia had

1935
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:39,440
created

1936
01:13:44,390 --> 01:13:42,239
the whole perception about ufos and that

1937
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:44,400
they were creating phony radar returns

1938
01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:46,800
and so on and so forth so there is this

1939
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:54,149
all right well thank you very much for

1940
01:13:57,430 --> 01:13:54,960
having gone

1941
01:13:59,189 --> 01:13:57,440
over the topic that we're all discussing

1942
01:14:02,870 --> 01:13:59,199
so comprehensively

1943
01:14:04,950 --> 01:14:02,880
tom we're very appreciative of your time

1944
01:14:06,149 --> 01:14:04,960
and uh really i'm very grateful that you

1945
01:14:08,070 --> 01:14:06,159
had the time

1946
01:14:09,990 --> 01:14:08,080
to spend with us today on the show and

1947
01:14:12,630 --> 01:14:10,000
frank did you have any other questions

1948
01:14:14,229 --> 01:14:12,640
uh yeah yeah i i had to cut my mic a

1949
01:14:15,910 --> 01:14:14,239
little bit there because uh the neighbor

1950
01:14:17,830 --> 01:14:15,920
decided to cut his lawn in the middle of

1951
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:17,840
our shower here so

1952
01:14:21,030 --> 01:14:19,280
i wanted i wasn't sure if that was

1953
01:14:22,310 --> 01:14:21,040
getting picked up on the air or not but

1954
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:22,320
i wanted to uh

1955
01:14:28,550 --> 01:14:25,360
uh

1956
01:14:31,189 --> 01:14:28,560
sounds like

1957
01:14:31,910 --> 01:14:31,199
you think he's a a serious credible guy

1958
01:14:34,310 --> 01:14:31,920
but

1959
01:14:36,229 --> 01:14:34,320
uh it seemed like if he really thought

1960
01:14:37,510 --> 01:14:36,239
that or at least he was leaning towards

1961
01:14:40,070 --> 01:14:37,520
that during his days

1962
01:14:41,669 --> 01:14:40,080
uh in terms of uh working with mufon i

1963
01:14:43,910 --> 01:14:41,679
guess he didn't know

1964
01:14:45,830 --> 01:14:43,920
that bigelow's moneybackers were

1965
01:14:46,229 --> 01:14:45,840
actually the pentagon at that point but

1966
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:46,239
uh

1967
01:14:53,669 --> 01:14:51,280
to you why he took such umbrage

1968
01:14:55,030 --> 01:14:53,679
at uh i guess it was uh cliff clift at

1969
01:14:56,550 --> 01:14:55,040
that point in time

1970
01:14:58,470 --> 01:14:56,560
saying yeah we'll take that money and

1971
01:14:59,910 --> 01:14:58,480
we'll do something with it from bigelow

1972
01:15:01,750 --> 01:14:59,920
do you know why he was so upset about

1973
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:01,760
that

1974
01:15:07,669 --> 01:15:04,800
like you said frank i was there and

1975
01:15:09,669 --> 01:15:07,679
we were presented with this opportunity

1976
01:15:12,950 --> 01:15:09,679
from mr bigelow

1977
01:15:14,550 --> 01:15:12,960
to have the opportunity to have a rapid

1978
01:15:18,229 --> 01:15:14,560
response team

1979
01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:18,239
so if there was a promising ufo sighting

1980
01:15:25,189 --> 01:15:21,280
or promising ufo event

1981
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:25,199
it was our intention to be able to

1982
01:15:30,550 --> 01:15:28,320
send a team there immediately okay

1983
01:15:32,470 --> 01:15:30,560
now mufon does not have a lot of money

1984
01:15:35,669 --> 01:15:32,480
for that on its own

1985
01:15:37,270 --> 01:15:35,679
so mr bigelow came in with lots and lots

1986
01:15:39,669 --> 01:15:37,280
of money for this

1987
01:15:42,070 --> 01:15:39,679
and it was our intention i know that the

1988
01:15:45,030 --> 01:15:42,080
intentions were good on our side

1989
01:15:46,790 --> 01:15:45,040
now mr bigelow did not disclose the

1990
01:15:49,189 --> 01:15:46,800
source of the funds

1991
01:15:51,510 --> 01:15:49,199
and i can tell you being a board member

1992
01:15:54,229 --> 01:15:51,520
and knowing the other board members

1993
01:15:56,709 --> 01:15:54,239
we have we had the perception that the

1994
01:15:59,110 --> 01:15:56,719
money was coming from private interests

1995
01:16:00,149 --> 01:15:59,120
you know these uh lawrence roger feller

1996
01:16:02,630 --> 01:16:00,159
types the

1997
01:16:04,149 --> 01:16:02,640
crown prince of liechtenstein maybe

1998
01:16:06,870 --> 01:16:04,159
bigelow himself

1999
01:16:08,870 --> 01:16:06,880
yeah yeah and there was no reason to

2000
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:08,880
think otherwise i mean bigelow has his

2001
01:16:11,510 --> 01:16:09,760
means and

2002
01:16:13,910 --> 01:16:11,520
uh do you remember the amount i mean it

2003
01:16:15,910 --> 01:16:13,920
wasn't uh it wasn't millions uh he was

2004
01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:15,920
offering up to move on

2005
01:16:19,990 --> 01:16:17,760
do you remember the exact amount i mean

2006
01:16:22,790 --> 01:16:20,000
it was a several thousand i guess

2007
01:16:27,990 --> 01:16:22,800
but there wasn't a fortune you know i'm

2008
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:30,390
terms right right now it may have been

2009
01:16:35,990 --> 01:16:32,640
pocket change to him

2010
01:16:36,709 --> 01:16:36,000
but uh mr bigelow is very strict about

2011
01:16:38,709 --> 01:16:36,719
money

2012
01:16:40,229 --> 01:16:38,719
and he he wants an accounting for

2013
01:16:43,110 --> 01:16:40,239
everything

2014
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:43,120
but uh i think james carrion got

2015
01:16:47,110 --> 01:16:44,159
suspicious

2016
01:16:47,669 --> 01:16:47,120
and he was hearing about this skinwalker

2017
01:16:50,070 --> 01:16:47,679
ranch

2018
01:16:52,149 --> 01:16:50,080
situation and i think that james

2019
01:16:54,310 --> 01:16:52,159
actually went to the location

2020
01:16:55,830 --> 01:16:54,320
and wanted to go on to the ranch and he

2021
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:55,840
wasn't admitted

2022
01:16:59,430 --> 01:16:58,239
i think that he became suspicious of

2023
01:17:01,110 --> 01:16:59,440
bigelow

2024
01:17:03,110 --> 01:17:01,120
and that he may have believed that the

2025
01:17:03,590 --> 01:17:03,120
money was coming from the government so

2026
01:17:07,990 --> 01:17:03,600
he

2027
01:17:11,510 --> 01:17:08,000
out

2028
01:17:13,669 --> 01:17:11,520
in december 2017 in the new york times

2029
01:17:15,510 --> 01:17:13,679
i read that thing and i put two and two

2030
01:17:15,990 --> 01:17:15,520
together you know and realized where the

2031
01:17:19,830 --> 01:17:16,000
money was

2032
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:22,630
fascinating well i think we i i think we

2033
01:17:24,870 --> 01:17:24,400
got a little uh some inside poop there

2034
01:17:27,910 --> 01:17:24,880
that was

2035
01:17:30,870 --> 01:17:27,920
thanks tom appreciate that

2036
01:17:31,430 --> 01:17:30,880
go ahead and recommend to everybody to

2037
01:17:34,630 --> 01:17:31,440
please

2038
01:17:37,830 --> 01:17:34,640
read that wonderful article that tom

2039
01:17:38,950 --> 01:17:37,840
took a lot of time doing uh research and

2040
01:17:41,430 --> 01:17:38,960
hard work on

2041
01:17:43,350 --> 01:17:41,440
he also has a complete list of citations

2042
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:43,360
and references so folks can peruse

2043
01:17:46,310 --> 01:17:44,640
through those at the

2044
01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:46,320
i think the bottom of the article but

2045
01:17:48,470 --> 01:17:47,840
they are included in the article that he

2046
01:17:52,310 --> 01:17:48,480
wrote

2047
01:17:53,510 --> 01:17:52,320
on uh 9 10 of the this year it was

2048
01:17:56,870 --> 01:17:53,520
titled mg

2049
01:18:00,310 --> 01:17:56,880
12 the counter intelligence angle on

2050
01:18:02,950 --> 01:18:00,320
tom whitmoreblog.wordpress.com now i

2051
01:18:09,270 --> 01:18:02,960
want to spell that out for our listeners

2052
01:18:12,709 --> 01:18:09,280
so it's tom tom whitmore w-h-i-t-m-o-r-e

2053
01:18:18,070 --> 01:18:12,719
dot oh sorry tom whitmore

2054
01:18:20,870 --> 01:18:18,080
so that's t-o-m-w-h-i-t-m-o-r-e-blog

2055
01:18:21,510 --> 01:18:20,880
dot wordpress.com now if you need to

2056
01:18:23,910 --> 01:18:21,520
find that

2057
01:18:25,990 --> 01:18:23,920
and you can't what you can do is just

2058
01:18:29,830 --> 01:18:26,000
type in tom whitmore blog

2059
01:18:31,990 --> 01:18:29,840
and you can also type in mjspace12

2060
01:18:32,870 --> 01:18:32,000
and on google hit enter and you'll

2061
01:18:35,669 --> 01:18:32,880
you'll probably

2062
01:18:36,550 --> 01:18:35,679
find it but we'll include that link to

2063
01:18:38,870 --> 01:18:36,560
the article

2064
01:18:40,149 --> 01:18:38,880
underneath this podcast so that you can

2065
01:18:42,550 --> 01:18:40,159
find it and

2066
01:18:44,310 --> 01:18:42,560
uh yeah let me let me jump into it with

2067
01:18:47,030 --> 01:18:44,320
one last thing now that i've got that

2068
01:18:47,430 --> 01:18:47,040
my memory banks properly engaged here

2069
01:18:49,669 --> 01:18:47,440
now

2070
01:18:51,430 --> 01:18:49,679
i also want to go back uh since uh we're

2071
01:18:52,550 --> 01:18:51,440
talking about the bigelow's involvement

2072
01:18:55,110 --> 01:18:52,560
with mufon

2073
01:18:55,830 --> 01:18:55,120
and i i i still think that uh some of

2074
01:18:57,910 --> 01:18:55,840
the uh

2075
01:18:59,669 --> 01:18:57,920
the fine work that some of the finest

2076
01:19:02,149 --> 01:18:59,679
work that the mufan's ever done

2077
01:19:04,149 --> 01:19:02,159
uh was related to that stephenville case

2078
01:19:07,350 --> 01:19:04,159
back in 2009

2079
01:19:09,430 --> 01:19:07,360
and uh uh i would think that

2080
01:19:10,950 --> 01:19:09,440
bigelow was still involved with mufon

2081
01:19:12,550 --> 01:19:10,960
while that case was going on would that

2082
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:12,560
be about right tom

2083
01:19:16,070 --> 01:19:14,960
i don't think so you don't think so okay

2084
01:19:18,229 --> 01:19:16,080
okay yeah

2085
01:19:19,669 --> 01:19:18,239
it ended during that at the same time

2086
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:19,679
that that uh

2087
01:19:24,070 --> 01:19:23,040
james carrion left okay as as executive

2088
01:19:26,070 --> 01:19:24,080
director

2089
01:19:28,229 --> 01:19:26,080
and i'd just like to point out champ

2090
01:19:30,550 --> 01:19:28,239
thank you for quoting my blog

2091
01:19:31,430 --> 01:19:30,560
there's also an audio version of that if

2092
01:19:34,950 --> 01:19:31,440
you go on

2093
01:19:36,470 --> 01:19:34,960
youtube and type in tom whitmore mj12

2094
01:19:38,550 --> 01:19:36,480
you should see it there's a

2095
01:19:40,470 --> 01:19:38,560
there's an image of an mj12 document

2096
01:19:43,669 --> 01:19:40,480
there and you can listen to

2097
01:19:45,350 --> 01:19:43,679
a a audio version oh good yes then

2098
01:19:46,390 --> 01:19:45,360
that's important that you did say that

2099
01:19:47,990 --> 01:19:46,400
because

2100
01:19:50,070 --> 01:19:48,000
actually there are a lot of folks out

2101
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:50,080
there who don't have the ability

2102
01:19:53,830 --> 01:19:52,320
for whatever reason whatever unknown or

2103
01:19:56,950 --> 01:19:53,840
known reasons they cannot

2104
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:56,960
read articles on the internet so being

2105
01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:58,560
able to have the privilege of listening

2106
01:20:02,830 --> 01:20:00,719
to them by audio is very very important

2107
01:20:04,310 --> 01:20:02,840
so please do go on youtube type in tom

2108
01:20:08,229 --> 01:20:04,320
whitmore mj

2109
01:20:09,430 --> 01:20:08,239
space 12 and so that's mj and then add a

2110
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:09,440
little space

2111
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:12,000
and then type in 12 hit enter and you

2112
01:20:16,229 --> 01:20:13,840
should be able to find that audio if you

2113
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:16,239
cannot what you can also do is you can

2114
01:20:20,390 --> 01:20:18,880
a little trick here go on google type in

2115
01:20:23,030 --> 01:20:20,400
tom whitmore

2116
01:20:23,510 --> 01:20:23,040
and then type in mj and then add in a

2117
01:20:26,550 --> 01:20:23,520
space

2118
01:20:28,070 --> 01:20:26,560
type in 12 then add in youtube

2119
01:20:30,870 --> 01:20:28,080
and you should be able to find that

2120
01:20:33,110 --> 01:20:30,880
right away on google from google

2121
01:20:34,950 --> 01:20:33,120
all right well tom we thank you so much

2122
01:20:37,030 --> 01:20:34,960
for uh the time that you spent with us

2123
01:20:39,110 --> 01:20:37,040
today frank i appreciate it yeah it was

2124
01:20:40,790 --> 01:20:39,120
it was a very enlightening it was very

2125
01:20:42,709 --> 01:20:40,800
enlightening uh always great to have you

2126
01:20:44,310 --> 01:20:42,719
on tom i sure do appreciate it we always

2127
01:20:44,870 --> 01:20:44,320
enjoy having you on the show thank you

2128
01:20:47,750 --> 01:20:44,880
tom

2129
01:20:49,270 --> 01:20:47,760
thank you frank thank you jim so uh

2130
01:20:51,189 --> 01:20:49,280
thanks for joining us and

2131
01:20:53,430 --> 01:20:51,199
we do have the thanksgiving holiday

2132
01:20:54,229 --> 01:20:53,440
coming up towards the end of the month i

2133
01:20:56,229 --> 01:20:54,239
think we've got

2134
01:20:58,229 --> 01:20:56,239
a couple weekends before thanksgiving

2135
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:58,239
weekend i don't think we have anything

2136
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:01,199
quite firmed up yet on the agenda chant

2137
01:21:05,830 --> 01:21:02,639
uh is that about right

2138
01:21:08,229 --> 01:21:05,840
oh you do oh you do but do we sure this

2139
01:21:10,629 --> 01:21:08,239
is not i mean it is for certain but i

2140
01:21:13,750 --> 01:21:10,639
don't always like saying oh this is

2141
01:21:15,590 --> 01:21:13,760
okay okay okay so so we may or may not

2142
01:21:16,709 --> 01:21:15,600
be back before thanksgiving and we

2143
01:21:18,390 --> 01:21:16,719
definitely won't do anything

2144
01:21:21,990 --> 01:21:18,400
thanksgiving weekend

2145
01:21:25,430 --> 01:21:22,000
next weekend i may be going somewhere

2146
01:21:27,350 --> 01:21:25,440
to actually cover a ufo related event

2147
01:21:30,070 --> 01:21:27,360
i'm not going to say what it is

2148
01:21:31,030 --> 01:21:30,080
okay but i will be talking to an

2149
01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:31,040
individual

2150
01:21:35,270 --> 01:21:33,280
uh hopefully that may happen if he has

2151
01:21:38,390 --> 01:21:35,280
the time who's known worldwide

2152
01:21:39,189 --> 01:21:38,400
regarding the ufo topic uh let me put it

2153
01:21:41,270 --> 01:21:39,199
this way

2154
01:21:42,629 --> 01:21:41,280
folks that are out of the ufo community

2155
01:21:45,910 --> 01:21:42,639
he's a household name they

2156
01:21:47,830 --> 01:21:45,920
they all know who he is hopefully i'll

2157
01:21:50,149 --> 01:21:47,840
have the opportunity to interview him

2158
01:21:52,229 --> 01:21:50,159
for for all of us to be able to listen

2159
01:21:53,590 --> 01:21:52,239
to what he has to say on the ufo slash

2160
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,600
et topic it's a

2161
01:21:57,350 --> 01:21:56,159
it's a historical case okay okay sounds

2162
01:21:59,669 --> 01:21:57,360
good and uh

2163
01:22:00,870 --> 01:21:59,679
uh well one way or the other even if

2164
01:22:02,629 --> 01:22:00,880
that doesn't pan out that we'll

2165
01:22:03,510 --> 01:22:02,639
certainly try to get in one show before

2166
01:22:05,669 --> 01:22:03,520
thanksgiving holiday

2167
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:05,679
absolutely yes yeah okay okay great uh

2168
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:07,679
tom uh thanks again for everything and

2169
01:22:10,550 --> 01:22:08,560
uh everybody

2170
01:22:12,470 --> 01:22:10,560
thanks so much for listening i think it

2171
01:22:13,830 --> 01:22:12,480
was a great show full of surprises and

2172
01:22:16,629 --> 01:22:13,840
some new information

2173
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:16,639
and uh we'll be back when we're back and

2174
01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:18,480
uh enjoy the rest of your weekend

2175
01:22:21,990 --> 01:22:20,320
uh thanks so much for joining us and